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unwanted X-ray vision (Real Studio games Mailinglist archive)

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[ANN] Preview of RBD 2.4   -   Marc Zeedar
  unwanted X-ray vision   -   LMSpam neuropop.com
   Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Lars Jensen
    Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   LMSpam neuropop.com
     Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Lars Jensen
    Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   LMSpam neuropop.com
    Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Jeff Quan
     Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Lars Jensen
      Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Jeff Quan
       Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Lars Jensen
    Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Jeff Quan
    Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   LMSpam neuropop.com
    Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   LMSpam neuropop.com
    Re: unwanted X-ray vision   -   Joseph J. Strout
    Re: Renegades navnode triggers (is again: unwanted X-ray vision)   -   Joseph J. Strout

unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 04.01.05 16:55 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:55:53 -0500)
From: LMSpam neuropop.com
I created a small island landscape made up of a few large polygons at
various shapes and angles.

The problems are that a) while running around in the valleys, I can see
objects through the hillsides, and b) at random (though repeatable)
places everything becomes invisible and all I see is the background
sky, and c) some objects will disappear when I point the camera
directly at them and then re-appear if I angle the camera off slightly.

I'm using the occlusion culls in Renegades which has helped somewhat w/
the looking through mountains, but are there other things I can do to
minimize X-ray vision and objects disappearing?

Also, I tried loading a pic into an Object3D which I then tried to make
the RB3D background. No errors were reported, but nothing was drawn
either. Are there any examples lying about of how to change the sky to
a pic rather than a solid color?

thanks,

L

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 04.01.05 19:03 (Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:03:30 -0500)
From: Lars Jensen
> The problems are that a) while running around in the valleys, I can see
> objects through the hillsides, and b) at random (though repeatable)
> places everything becomes invisible and all I see is the background
> sky, and c) some objects will disappear when I point the camera
> directly at them and then re-appear if I angle the camera off slightly.

Maybe you are just on the wrong side of your polygons. Have you tried
turning on RenderBackfaces for all your 3D objects? If that cures your X-ray
vision, it means that you are inside the objects rather than outside of
them, under a hill instead of on top of it, etc.

> Also, I tried loading a pic into an Object3D which I then tried to make
> the RB3D background. No errors were reported, but nothing was drawn
> either. Are there any examples lying about of how to change the sky to
> a pic rather than a solid color?

Again, it might be that you are behind it, or viewing it edge-on. A
background is usually not a backdrop like a curtain, but rather an object
like a cube (or globe or cylinder) that the camera is inside of rather than
outside of. (You could make a background that was a single picture, as long
as the camera always faced it.) Also, it needs to be large enough to contain
the camera and all the other objects you want to see.

For more info:

http://homepage.mac.com/ljensen/rb/3d_readme_framed.htm

lj

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 04.01.05 18:19 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:19:58 -0500)
From: LMSpam neuropop.com
I've been using Joe's 3D Editor which has a "2 sided" property. I was
assuming that it set the renderbackfaces property, but I haven't
actually checked...

Now I shall go make skies!

On Jan 4, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Lars Jensen wrote:

>> The problems are that a) while running around in the valleys, I can
>> see
>> objects through the hillsides, and b) at random (though repeatable)
>> places everything becomes invisible and all I see is the background
>> sky, and c) some objects will disappear when I point the camera
>> directly at them and then re-appear if I angle the camera off
>> slightly.
>
> Maybe you are just on the wrong side of your polygons. Have you tried
> turning on RenderBackfaces for all your 3D objects? If that cures your
> X-ray
> vision, it means that you are inside the objects rather than outside of
> them, under a hill instead of on top of it, etc.
>
>> Also, I tried loading a pic into an Object3D which I then tried to
>> make
>> the RB3D background. No errors were reported, but nothing was drawn
>> either. Are there any examples lying about of how to change the sky to
>> a pic rather than a solid color?
>
> Again, it might be that you are behind it, or viewing it edge-on. A
> background is usually not a backdrop like a curtain, but rather an
> object
> like a cube (or globe or cylinder) that the camera is inside of rather
> than
> outside of. (You could make a background that was a single picture, as
> long
> as the camera always faced it.) Also, it needs to be large enough to
> contain
> the camera and all the other objects you want to see.
>
> For more info:
>
> http://homepage.mac.com/ljensen/rb/3d_readme_framed.htm
>
> lj
>
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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 04.01.05 19:31 (Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:31:34 -0500)
From: Lars Jensen
> I've been using Joe's 3D Editor which has a "2 sided" property. I was
> assuming that it set the renderbackfaces property, but I haven't
> actually checked...

Meshwork lets you set the direction of the normals, but it is in the
Object3D at runtime, not in the 3DMF, that RenderBackFaces is set.

lj
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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 04.01.05 19:00 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:00:31 -0500)
From: LMSpam neuropop.com
I've been placing the cullers in front of various stationary objects
and that seems to work pretty well - I initially just made a huge cross
hatch of 8 cullers across the island, but they seemed to get cranky
trying to deal with overlaps, so have been hand tweaking them like you
said.

I have my floor set to -1 from the navmesh - I'll play around w/
different values.

Oh - and the objects that disappear when you point the camera directly
at them are non-stationary objects e.g. they pick a speed and rotation
at start up and then float off in that direction (until they turn
around and float back)

On Jan 4, 2005, at 1:43 PM, Jeff Quan wrote:

>
> On Jan 4, 2005, at 9:19 AM, <email address removed> wrote:
>> I've been using Joe's 3D Editor which has a "2 sided" property. I was
>> assuming that it set the renderbackfaces property, but I haven't
>> actually checked...
>
> Yes, that's what it does.
>
> Another reason that you might be getting "X-ray vision" is that the
> camera is too close to the object and consequently pokes through the
> landscape. The Renegades project has a lot of hand-tweaking of
> navnodes to avoid the X-ray effect as much as possible. There are very
> few spots where the floor of a room is used as part of a navmesh
> as-is. Most of the time the navmesh is set to be more than 0.5 meters
> (or 50 units in Meshwork) away from any wall.
>
> As to occlusion cullers -- Joe can fill in more about this -- they
> work by checking whether or not the center of the object is in
> front/behind of the culler. Cullers doesn't work on individual
> polygons, which may be why in certain spots everything becomes
> invisible for you.
>
> => Jeff Quan
> <email address removed>
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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 04.01.05 19:43 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:43:18 -0800)
From: Jeff Quan

On Jan 4, 2005, at 9:19 AM, <email address removed> wrote:
> I've been using Joe's 3D Editor which has a "2 sided" property. I was
> assuming that it set the renderbackfaces property, but I haven't
> actually checked...

Yes, that's what it does.

Another reason that you might be getting "X-ray vision" is that the
camera is too close to the object and consequently pokes through the
landscape. The Renegades project has a lot of hand-tweaking of navnodes
to avoid the X-ray effect as much as possible. There are very few spots
where the floor of a room is used as part of a navmesh as-is. Most of
the time the navmesh is set to be more than 0.5 meters (or 50 units in
Meshwork) away from any wall.

As to occlusion cullers -- Joe can fill in more about this -- they work
by checking whether or not the center of the object is in front/behind
of the culler. Cullers doesn't work on individual polygons, which may
be why in certain spots everything becomes invisible for you.

=Jeff Quan
<email address removed>

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 04.01.05 20:07 (Tue, 04 Jan 2005 14:07:30 -0500)
From: Lars Jensen
>> I've been using Joe's 3D Editor which has a "2 sided" property. I was
>> assuming that it set the renderbackfaces property, but I haven't
>> actually checked...
>
> Yes, that's what it does.

Did I mis-speak? I don't see how to make Meshwork normals point in both
directions at once...

lj

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 05.01.05 01:37 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:37:27 -0800)
From: Jeff Quan

On Jan 4, 2005, at 11:07 AM, Lars Jensen wrote:

>>> I've been using Joe's 3D Editor which has a "2 sided" property. I was
>>> assuming that it set the renderbackfaces property, but I haven't
>>> actually checked...
>>
>> Yes, that's what it does.
>
> Did I mis-speak? I don't see how to make Meshwork normals point in both
> directions at once...

No, you got it right the first time. Sorry about the mixup.

What I should have stated clearly is that the Renegades 3D Editor (not
Meshwork) has a 2-sided property which tells the Renegades engine to
render an object with RenderBackFaces.

=Jeff Quan
<email address removed>

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 05.01.05 04:51 (Tue, 04 Jan 2005 22:51:06 -0500)
From: Lars Jensen
> What I should have stated clearly is that the Renegades 3D Editor (not
> Meshwork) has a 2-sided property which tells the Renegades engine to
> render an object with RenderBackFaces.

Ah, I saw "Joe's 3D Editor" and never considered that there might be another
one. Dang, more stuff to chafe over not having time to check out...

lj

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 05.01.05 02:03 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:03:08 -0800)
From: Jeff Quan

On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:00 AM, <email address removed> wrote:

> I've been placing the cullers in front of various stationary objects
> and that seems to work pretty well - I initially just made a huge
> cross hatch of 8 cullers across the island, but they seemed to get
> cranky trying to deal with overlaps, so have been hand tweaking them
> like you said.
>
> I have my floor set to -1 from the navmesh - I'll play around w/
> different values.
>
> Oh - and the objects that disappear when you point the camera directly
> at them are non-stationary objects e.g. they pick a speed and rotation
> at start up and then float off in that direction (until they turn
> around and float back)

The Renegades engine uses the three closest occluders at any one time.
I think you can set this in CullingUtils.FindCutoff. I wouldn't set
this number high, as it will slow framerates down.

If you want to get the most mileage out of occluders in Renegades,
don't try to cover large swaths of areas by overlapping them. I've
found they work best when occluding small areas. In fact, Renegades
(the game) primarily occludes by toggling on/off whole groups of
objects via navnode triggers, using occluders to mostly handle smaller
areas.

There's a whole bunch of stuff in Renegades that isn't documented at
this point (the code is well-commented, however). Personally, I feel
good that someone else has been able to dive into the Renegades code
cold and come up with a working alpha, especially since Renegades
itself hasn't gone alpha!

As always, feel free to ask questions.
=Jeff Quan
<email address removed>

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 05.01.05 02:59 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:59:30 -0500)
From: LMSpam neuropop.com
we probably have different definitions of alpha... :)

But I do have to give you guys props - I've been able to have an idea
and implement a rough version in just about a month. In fact, I did one
really crappy version, and then re-wrote *that*!

Thanks - questions will continue.

L

On Jan 4, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Jeff Quan wrote:

> There's a whole bunch of stuff in Renegades that isn't documented at
> this point (the code is well-commented, however). Personally, I feel
> good that someone else has been able to dive into the Renegades code
> cold and come up with a working alpha, especially since Renegades
> itself hasn't gone alpha!
>
> As always, feel free to ask questions.
> => Jeff Quan
> <email address removed>
> _______________________________________________
> Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 05.01.05 03:16 (Tue, 4 Jan 2005 21:16:04 -0500)
From: LMSpam neuropop.com
ok next question!

what are navnode triggers, and how do I use them?

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Re: unwanted X-ray vision
Date: 05.01.05 16:24 (Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:24:02 -0600)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 1:00 PM -0500 1/4/05, <email address removed> wrote:

>I've been placing the cullers in front of various stationary objects
>and that seems to work pretty well

I hope that by "in front of" you mean "behind." :) Occluders need
to be inside big stationary objects (or behind them, if they're
things the player can't get behind). Not in front of them -- that
would cause the objects themselves to disappear when they happen to
be behind the occluder from the camera's point of view.

>I have my floor set to -1 from the navmesh - I'll play around w/
>different values.

It matters greatly how you have Hither and Yon set. Remember,
nothing closer to the camera than Hither gets drawn.

>Oh - and the objects that disappear when you point the camera
>directly at them are non-stationary objects e.g. they pick a speed
>and rotation at start up and then float off in that direction (until
>they turn around and float back)

Aha. I bet you're not calling UpdateBounds on them -- you need to do
that whenever they move. (For those following along at home, that's
a method in the Renegades engine code, which LM is using).

Best,
- Joe

P.S. I obviously just got back from vacation and am trying to catch
up, so please excuse me if you've all figured this out already.