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modeler... (Real Studio games Mailinglist archive)

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[ANN] Preview of RBD 2.4   -   Marc Zeedar
  modeler...   -   Stephen Tallent
   Re: modeler...   -   Joseph J. Strout
   Re: modeler...   -   Seth Duke
    Re: modeler...   -   Frank Condello
    Re: modeler...   -   Seth Willits
    Re: modeler...   -   Joseph J. Strout
    Re: modeler...   -   Frank Condello
    Re: modeler...   -   Seth Willits
    Re: modeler...   -   Philip Regan
    Re: modeler...   -   Lo Saeteurn
     Re: modeler...   -   Lars Jensen
    Re: modeler...   -   Joseph J. Strout
     Re: modeler...   -   Lars Jensen
      Re: modeler...   -   Joseph Nastasi
      Re: modeler...   -   Joseph J. Strout
      Re: modeler...   -   Joseph Nastasi
      Re: modeler...   -   Seth Willits
    Re: modeler...   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: modeler...   -   Frank Condello
   Re: modeler...   -   Philip Regan
   Re: modeler...   -   Stephen Tallent

modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 16:58 (Tue, 24 May 2005 10:58:53 -0500)
From: Stephen Tallent

Okay, so I am embarking on my first 3D game project and making slow
but steady progress, but I will have plenty of questions for the list
along the way. And here is the first...

My primary platform that I will be developing on is win32, and while
own several modeling apps, of course none support 3DMF. Googling for
days hasn't turned up any reasonable options for win32 tools for
converting from any of the major formats to 3DMF. My only option
currently appears to be to export from my win32 modeler and move it
over to my ancient and slow mac to do the conversion and then move it
back. Certainly not the end of the world or anything, but awfully
tedious when you have a lot of little models to do and I bet it will
take me awhile to get them right.

Anyone else using win32 as their primary dev platform? If so, how
are you getting your models to 3DMF? Hopefully I am missing
something embarrassingly obvious.

-stephen

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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 17:17 (Tue, 24 May 2005 11:17:19 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 10:58 AM -0500 5/24/05, Stephen Tallent wrote:

>My primary platform that I will be developing on is win32, and while
>own several modeling apps, of course none support 3DMF. Googling
>for days hasn't turned up any reasonable options for win32 tools for
>converting from any of the major formats to 3DMF. My only option
>currently appears to be to export from my win32 modeler and move it
>over to my ancient and slow mac to do the conversion and then move
>it back.

Another alternative would be to write your own converter, or
collaborate with others.

This is a recurring problem and is only going to get bigger as more
Windows and Linux users get into the game. Quite some time ago, I
started a 3D model converter app, but I'm sorry to say I didn't get
very far with it before getting distracted by other things. I'd be
happy to donate it as a starting-point, such as it is.

Or, instead of trying to write a general converter, a much easier
task would be to write one specific to your needs. Survey the file
formats your preferred modeling tools can export. Find one that has
all the information you need (some formats will drop UV coordinates,
for example), and yet is fairly simple and easy to parse, at least in
your usage of it (many formats -- like 3DMF -- are 900-pound gorillas
that support a lot more stuff than you probably use; you only care
about the subset you're using). Write code to parse this data, and
produce an in-memory description of the model.

Then, once you have that, we can discuss how to either export it as
3DMF, or just generate Object3Ds on the fly so you can use those
models directly.

Best,
- Joe

Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 17:49 (Tue, 24 May 2005 12:49:34 -0400)
From: Seth Duke


On 5/24/05 11:58 AM, "Stephen Tallent" <<email address removed>> wrote:

>
> Okay, so I am embarking on my first 3D game project and making slow
> but steady progress, but I will have plenty of questions for the list
> along the way. And here is the first...
>
> My primary platform that I will be developing on is win32, and while
> own several modeling apps, of course none support 3DMF. Googling for
> days hasn't turned up any reasonable options for win32 tools for
> converting from any of the major formats to 3DMF. My only option
> currently appears to be to export from my win32 modeler and move it
> over to my ancient and slow mac to do the conversion and then move it
> back. Certainly not the end of the world or anything, but awfully
> tedious when you have a lot of little models to do and I bet it will
> take me awhile to get them right.
>
> Anyone else using win32 as their primary dev platform? If so, how
> are you getting your models to 3DMF? Hopefully I am missing
> something embarrassingly obvious.
>
> -stephen

I use Maxon Cinema 4D. It supports import/export of 3DMF. Its pretty pricy
though, so it might not be a great option.

-Seth

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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 18:09 (Tue, 24 May 2005 13:09:48 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 24-May-05, at 12:49 PM, Seth Duke wrote:

> I use Maxon Cinema 4D. It supports import/export of 3DMF. Its
> pretty pricy
> though, so it might not be a great option.

Unfortunately the 3DMF output is also next to useless without some
pre-and-post processing.

Frank.
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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 19:10 (Tue, 24 May 2005 11:10:11 -0700)
From: Seth Willits
On May 24, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Frank Condello wrote:

>> I use Maxon Cinema 4D. It supports import/export of 3DMF. Its
>> pretty pricy
>> though, so it might not be a great option.
>
> Unfortunately the 3DMF output is also next to useless without some
> pre-and-post processing.

I don't know about pre-processing but for post-processing, 3DMF
Optimizer is still around. Joe's just a wee bit behind in getting his
dozens of projects out the door. ;^)



Seth Willits
----------------------------------------------------------
Freak Software - http://www.freaksw.com/
ResExcellence - http://www.resexcellence.com/realbasic/
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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 19:26 (Tue, 24 May 2005 13:26:34 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 11:10 AM -0700 5/24/05, Seth Willits wrote:

>>Unfortunately the 3DMF output is also next to useless without some
>>pre-and-post processing.
>
>I don't know about pre-processing but for post-processing, 3DMF
>Optimizer is still around. Joe's just a wee bit behind in getting
>his dozens of projects out the door. ;^)

True, but it still only runs on the Mac. Still, if somebody wants a
Carbonized version of this, ask me or Seth.

Best,
- Joe

Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 19:36 (Tue, 24 May 2005 14:36:32 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 24-May-05, at 2:10 PM, Seth Willits wrote:

> On May 24, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Frank Condello wrote:
>
>>> I use Maxon Cinema 4D. It supports import/export of 3DMF. Its
>>> pretty pricy
>>> though, so it might not be a great option.
>>
>> Unfortunately the 3DMF output is also next to useless without some
>> pre-and-post processing.
>
> I don't know about pre-processing but for post-processing, 3DMF
> Optimizer is still around. Joe's just a wee bit behind in getting
> his dozens of projects out the door. ;^)

3DMF Optimizer works well enough in classic, but it's the pre-
processing that's the main problem. You have to reverse all the
triangle normals (or else they'll be inside-out) then disconnect all
the triangles so you've got 3 unique vertices per triangle (this
fixes UV mapping issues). Now you can export as 3DMF and use 3DMF
optimizer to re-connect the triangles, and replace any textures too,
'cause C4D usually messes those up as well. I wrote a COFFEE script
to automate this if anyone wants it...

Frank.
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<http://developer.chaoticbox.com/>
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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 19:43 (Tue, 24 May 2005 11:43:02 -0700)
From: Seth Willits
On May 24, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Frank Condello wrote:

> 3DMF Optimizer works well enough in classic, but it's the pre-
> processing that's the main problem. You have to reverse all the
> triangle normals (or else they'll be inside-out) then disconnect
> all the triangles so you've got 3 unique vertices per triangle
> (this fixes UV mapping issues). Now you can export as 3DMF and use
> 3DMF optimizer to re-connect the triangles, and replace any
> textures too, 'cause C4D usually messes those up as well. I wrote a
> COFFEE script to automate this if anyone wants it...

Yikes.


Seth Willits
----------------------------------------------------------
Freak Software - http://www.freaksw.com/
ResExcellence - http://www.resexcellence.com/realbasic/
----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 20:29 (Tue, 24 May 2005 15:29:24 -0400)
From: Philip Regan
Stephen, I have Carrera 4 Pro. I'd be willing to run one of your
models through so you can test drive the conversion to 3DMF before
plunking down $200+. E-mail me off-list.

cheers

--

Philip Regan

http://homepage.mac.com/pregan

On 24 May 2005, at 14:43, Seth Willits wrote:

On May 24, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Frank Condello wrote:

3DMF Optimizer works well enough in classic, but it's the
pre-processing that's the main problem. You have to reverse all the
triangle normals (or else they'll be inside-out) then disconnect all
the triangles so you've got 3 unique vertices per triangle (this fixes
UV mapping issues). Now you can export as 3DMF and use 3DMF optimizer
to re-connect the triangles, and replace any textures too, 'cause C4D
usually messes those up as well. I wrote a COFFEE script to automate
this if anyone wants it...


Yikes.



Seth Willits

----------------------------------------------------------

Freak Software - http://www.freaksw.com/

ResExcellence - http://www.resexcellence.com/realbasic/

----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: modeler...
Date: 26.05.05 21:52 (Thu, 26 May 2005 13:52:13 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
Hi Joe,

I would like a copy of these tools in Carbon.

Update on the game:

1. I'm adding multiplayer support (Co-op and death matches). So far
it works except for a few sync issues I'm trying to iron out. It runs
fairly fast even over the network. It's actually pretty fun to play
Renegades in Co-Op and a machine gun.

2. Scripts run very fast.

3. I optimized the engine a bit by separating the game into tiles
(25x25 in size; I can adjust this size to see what works best) so
that it doesn't have to process the entire world at once. In each
tile are the game objects: GameObj, NavNodes, Occluders, Sounds, and
Lights (crashes when removing lights). Basically, the game is not
dependent on the size of the world.

Hopefully I we can see a new version of Meshwork soon.

Regards,
Lo Saeteurn

On May 24, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:
>>
>> I don't know about pre-processing but for post-processing, 3DMF
>> Optimizer is still around. Joe's just a wee bit behind in getting
>> his dozens of projects out the door. ;^)
>>
> True, but it still only runs on the Mac. Still, if somebody wants
> a Carbonized version of this, ask me or Seth.
>
> Best,
> - Joe
>
> --
> Joe Strout REAL Software, Inc.
>
> Vote for REALbasic (twice!) in the LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Awards:
> http://linux.sys-con.com/general/readerschoice.htm
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Re: modeler...
Date: 26.05.05 22:51 (Thu, 26 May 2005 17:51:12 -0400)
From: Lars Jensen
> (crashes when removing lights).

http://support.realsoftware.com/feedback/viewreport.php?reportid=gedhlkkl

lj
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Re: modeler...
Date: 26.05.05 22:14 (Thu, 26 May 2005 16:14:24 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 1:52 PM -0700 5/26/05, Lo Saeteurn wrote:

>I would like a copy of these tools in Carbon.

If you're using Meshwork, then you don't need it -- Meshwork's 3DMF
is highly optimized already.

>Hopefully I we can see a new version of Meshwork soon.

Only for very generous definitions of "soon." First I need to get
Renegades out the door... and then Zombies... and then I'll finally
get back to work on Meshwork, I hope.

Best,
- Joe

Re: modeler...
Date: 26.05.05 22:52 (Thu, 26 May 2005 17:52:10 -0400)
From: Lars Jensen
> First I need to get Renegades out the door... and then Zombies... and then
> I'll finally get back to work on Meshwork, I hope.

Dang, that's the opposite order that I would have hoped...

lj
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Re: modeler...
Date: 26.05.05 23:45 (Thu, 26 May 2005 18:45:23 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On May 26, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Lars Jensen wrote:

>> First I need to get Renegades out the door... and then Zombies... and
>> then
>> I'll finally get back to work on Meshwork, I hope.
>
> Dang, that's the opposite order that I would have hoped...

Yeah, me too! Renegades I get, but Zombies before Meshwork?
wah!!!
:-)

Re: modeler...
Date: 27.05.05 15:13 (Fri, 27 May 2005 09:13:47 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 6:45 PM -0400 5/26/05, Joseph Nastasi wrote:

>>Dang, that's the opposite order that I would have hoped...
>
>Yeah, me too! Renegades I get, but Zombies before Meshwork?
>wah!!!

That's just because it's started, and would only take about a day to
finish. (Of course, it takes me several weeks to get a day's worth
of time, but still...) So, by finishing it quickly, I can get it off
my back.

It's reminiscent of Armageddon, which is probably my most successful
game project to date and took less than two weeks, thanks to a
contest deadline!

Best,
- Joe

Re: modeler...
Date: 27.05.05 16:02 (Fri, 27 May 2005 11:02:55 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On May 27, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 6:45 PM -0400 5/26/05, Joseph Nastasi wrote:
>
>>> Dang, that's the opposite order that I would have hoped...
>>
>> Yeah, me too! Renegades I get, but Zombies before Meshwork?
>> wah!!!
>
> That's just because it's started, and would only take about a day to
> finish. (Of course, it takes me several weeks to get a day's worth of
> time, but still...) So, by finishing it quickly, I can get it off my
> back.
>
> It's reminiscent of Armageddon, which is probably my most successful
> game project to date and took less than two weeks, thanks to a contest
> deadline!

Hmmm... Lars and I will sponsor a bogus contest, if that helps...
I hear ya!
:-)

Re: modeler...
Date: 27.05.05 21:46 (Fri, 27 May 2005 13:46:49 -0700)
From: Seth Willits
On May 27, 2005, at 8:02 AM, Joseph Nastasi wrote:

>> It's reminiscent of Armageddon, which is probably my most
>> successful game project to date and took less than two weeks,
>> thanks to a contest deadline!
>
> Hmmm... Lars and I will sponsor a bogus contest, if that helps...

Speaking of contests... a new 21 Days Later contest is going to start
"soon." The theme at the moment is "Evil".


Seth Willits
----------------------------------------------------------
Freak Software - http://www.freaksw.com/
ResExcellence - http://www.resexcellence.com/realbasic/
----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: modeler...
Date: 27.05.05 00:26 (Thu, 26 May 2005 16:26:02 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
Come to think of it, I made my own Zombie level with my Renegades MOD
using my RBscripts MOD from the scene builder. It is kind of fun
shooting a hundred or so zombies roaming around in realtime.

When my game engine (partially Joe's and Jeff's aswell) is more
complete, maybe I'll post it up (with just that zombie level) so we
can start a multiplayer game to eliminate the zombies (mainly so I
can test the multiplayer part over the internet with at least a few
people).

On May 26, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:
>
> Only for very generous definitions of "soon." First I need to get
> Renegades out the door... and then Zombies... and then I'll finally
> get back to work on Meshwork, I hope.

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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 18:08 (Tue, 24 May 2005 13:08:32 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 24-May-05, at 12:17 PM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 10:58 AM -0500 5/24/05, Stephen Tallent wrote:
>
>> My primary platform that I will be developing on is win32, and
>> while own several modeling apps, of course none support 3DMF.
>> Googling for days hasn't turned up any reasonable options for
>> win32 tools for converting from any of the major formats to 3DMF.
>> My only option currently appears to be to export from my win32
>> modeler and move it over to my ancient and slow mac to do the
>> conversion and then move it back.
>
> Another alternative would be to write your own converter, or
> collaborate with others.

I keep putting this off, but I'm hoping to get back on it soon...
I've created a "Generic 3D Model" framework that consists of a bunch
of classes that can describe an n-gon mesh in an easy to use format
(basically just a bunch of arrays of custom generic basic types). The
plan is to add import/export methods via class extensions to keep it
modular - adding 3DMF output shouldn't be difficult using the Quesa
Wrappers, and the OBJ importer is about 50% done, so it shouldn't
take long once I find some free time.

I am still debating how to handle certain things though - getting the
vertex and normal list into and out-of a vertex-array compatible
format can get messy...

Frank.
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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 18:53 (Tue, 24 May 2005 13:53:21 -0400)
From: Philip Regan
Check out Eovia's Carrera. It imports and exports 3DMF, and looking at
the list linked below, it looks like it does it on both PC and Mac (I
have it for my Mac and love it). The standard version is $279, but
they usually have deals if you own any of the competition.

http://www.eovia.com/products/carrara_standard/carrara_std_full_features.asp

--

Philip Regan

http://homepage.mac.com/pregan

On 24 May 2005, at 11:58, Stephen Tallent wrote:



Okay, so I am embarking on my first 3D game project and making slow
but steady progress, but I will have plenty of questions for the list
along the way. And here is the first...

My primary platform that I will be developing on is win32, and while
own several modeling apps, of course none support 3DMF. Googling for
days hasn't turned up any reasonable options for win32 tools for
converting from any of the major formats to 3DMF. My only option
currently appears to be to export from my win32 modeler and move it
over to my ancient and slow mac to do the conversion and then move it
back. Certainly not the end of the world or anything, but awfully
tedious when you have a lot of little models to do and I bet it will
take me awhile to get them right.

Anyone else using win32 as their primary dev platform? If so, how are
you getting your models to 3DMF? Hopefully I am missing something
embarrassingly obvious.

-stephen


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Re: modeler...
Date: 24.05.05 19:02 (Tue, 24 May 2005 13:02:47 -0500)
From: Stephen Tallent
> Another alternative would be to write your own converter, or
> collaborate with others.

While that would be cool, that is exactly the kind of distraction I
*don't* need if I ever want to finish. And as discussed recently on
this very list, seeing the game all the way to completion can be
quite a challenge. I am deliberately keeping my first effort very
simple so I have at least a chance of finishing (even if it sucks).

> Then, once you have that, we can discuss how to either export it as
> 3DMF, or just generate Object3Ds on the fly so you can use those
> models directly.

I would like to be able to generate some stuff on the fly. I am
already doing that will the super simple stuff like cubes and spheres
because the 3DMF syntax is pretty easy and just using
AddShapeFromString. But for anything more complicated, I think I
will just do manually in 3rd party apps for now.

And from Seth:

>> I use Maxon Cinema 4D.

Yeah, a bit too pricey for this project. I already own ancient
version of Strata (sucks, but better than nothing), in which case I
can get away with just purchasing something like Cheetah3D for mac to
handle the conversions which is pretty cheap. Or I could go with
Carrara 4 which I didn't realize supported 3DMF until I just saw the
message from Philip. Still would rather not spend $230, but that
isn't terrible.

-stephen
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