Xojo Conferences
XDCMay2019MiamiUSA

model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?) (Real Studio games Mailinglist archive)

Back to the thread list
Previous thread: Re: model formats
Next thread: What about REALbasic 2005?


model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph J. Strout
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Daniel Lurie
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph Nastasi
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Stephen Tallent
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph J. Strout
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph J. Strout
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Daniel Lurie
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Frank Condello
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph J. Strout
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Seth Willits
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Frank Condello
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Troy Rollins
   Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Lars Jensen
    Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Troy Rollins
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph Nastasi
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph J. Strout
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph Nastasi
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Troy Rollins
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph Nastasi
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Troy Rollins
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph Nastasi
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph J. Strout
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Troy Rollins
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   John Balestrieri
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Troy Rollins
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Frank Condello
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Frank Condello
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Joseph Nastasi
  Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)   -   Troy Rollins

model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 22:52 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:52:44 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 5:33 PM -0400 6/14/05, Daniel Lurie wrote:

>Now all we need is a *cough* Meshwork *cough* importer. ;)

Whatever for? REALbasic can already read 3DMF, and Meshwork already
outputs good-quality 3DMF. I don't see any need to tie it to a
specific modeler.

However, I was surprised how little reaction there was to the 3DS
import recently added to Frank's 3DMF Workshop tool. 3DS is one of
the most common model formats on the net; I expected it to generate a
little more excitement.

Best,
- Joe

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 23:05 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:05:25 -0400)
From: Daniel Lurie
Perhaps I should have been more specific. One that can tween between
the poses in a Meshworks model.


On Jun 14, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

>
>> Now all we need is a *cough* Meshwork *cough* importer. ;)
>
> Whatever for? REALbasic can already read 3DMF, and Meshwork already
> outputs good-quality 3DMF. I don't see any need to tie it to a
> specific modeler.
=DcDkDoDSDDaniel R. Lurie
=GD?DGD?DGDhttp://www.vikingdan.com

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 23:12 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:12:18 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On Jun 14, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:
>
> However, I was surprised how little reaction there was to the 3DS
> import recently added to Frank's 3DMF Workshop tool. 3DS is one of
> the most common model formats on the net; I expected it to generate a
> little more excitement.

Actually, I went ga ga over it. I had boys from Beijing send over some
3DS models. There were problems with the geometry getting slashed. I
need to document and report. To the group or directly to Frank???

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 23:21 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:21:17 -0500)
From: Stephen Tallent
> However, I was surprised how little reaction there was to the 3DS
> import recently added to Frank's 3DMF Workshop tool. 3DS is one of
> the most common model formats on the net; I expected it to generate
> a little more excitement.

I, too, am excited because I can now more easily use my current win32
modeling tools, but I won't be able to put it to use and therefor
generate a "this works great!" or "this sux!" response for another
week or so. But mucho thanks to Frank and Joe for this, I will
*definitely* be using it.

-stephen

=sDcDsDgDwDsD/DoD/DwDsDsD/Stephen Tallent
Tallent Communications, Inc.
<email address removed>
http://www.tallent.com

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 23:29 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:29:09 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 6:05 PM -0400 6/14/05, Daniel Lurie wrote:

>Perhaps I should have been more specific. One that can tween between
>the poses in a Meshworks model.

Ah, I see. Well, that would require a bit of work, though it's
certainly doable with declares.

Best,
- Joe

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 23:30 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:30:30 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 6:12 PM -0400 6/14/05, Joseph Nastasi wrote:

>>However, I was surprised how little reaction there was to the 3DS
>>import recently added to Frank's 3DMF Workshop tool. 3DS is one of
>>the most common model formats on the net; I expected it to generate
>>a little more excitement.
>
>Actually, I went ga ga over it. I had boys from Beijing send over
>some 3DS models. There were problems with the geometry getting
>slashed. I need to document and report. To the group or directly to
>Frank???

Ah, I'm glad somebody noticed it was there! I actually wrote the 3DS
importer, but Frank integrated it, so why not send email to both
Frank and me. *Small* sample models showing problems would also be
very helpful. It's probably just a simple mistake somewhere...

Thanks,
- Joe

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 23:34 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:34:54 -0400)
From: Daniel Lurie
It was always surprising to me that there was no way to do this, since
you're the author of the 3D control and Meshwork, Joe.

An easy mechanism for doing character animation like that would make RB
much more attractive for game developments.

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:29 PM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 6:05 PM -0400 6/14/05, Daniel Lurie wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I should have been more specific. One that can tween between
>> the poses in a Meshworks model.
>
> Ah, I see. Well, that would require a bit of work, though it's
> certainly doable with declares.
>
> Best,
> - Joe
>
> --
> Joe Strout REAL Software, Inc.
>
> Vote for REALbasic (twice!) in the LinuxWorld Reader's Choice Awards:
> http://linux.sys-con.com/general/readerschoice.htm
> _______________________________________________
> Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
> <http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>
> Search the archives of this list here:
> <http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>
=GDDcDkDoDDaniel R. Lurie
=?DGD?DGD?Dhttp://www.vikingdan.com

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 14.06.05 23:48 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:48:59 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 14-Jun-05, at 6:30 PM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 6:12 PM -0400 6/14/05, Joseph Nastasi wrote:
>
>>> However, I was surprised how little reaction there was to the 3DS
>>> import recently added to Frank's 3DMF Workshop tool. 3DS is one
>>> of the most common model formats on the net; I expected it to
>>> generate a little more excitement.
>>
>> Actually, I went ga ga over it. I had boys from Beijing send over
>> some 3DS models. There were problems with the geometry getting
>> slashed. I need to document and report. To the group or directly
>> to Frank???
>
> Ah, I'm glad somebody noticed it was there! I actually wrote the
> 3DS importer, but Frank integrated it, so why not send email to
> both Frank and me. *Small* sample models showing problems would
> also be very helpful. It's probably just a simple mistake
> somewhere...

I found a couple problems in the 3DS loader and hacked it up to work
with my test models but I'll have to look at the format specs more
closely to ensure it won't break in other cases. I didn't want to bug
you (Joe S.) with this during the Rb2005 crunch, but there were two
issues: UVs weren't being saved into the Generic3DModel structure,
and triangle indices were wrong for all but the first trimesh (3DS
indices are zero based for each mesh, but GenericModel3D uses one big
shared vertex list).

There's also a problem with the Generic3DModel class where it'll
break if a multi-mesh model is imported where some meshes have UVs
and other meshes don't. This was an oversight in the original design,
and looks to be a bit of work to fix, but I'll re-work it some point.
My hacks to the 3DS importer don't account for this type of model
either, so that'll need to be fixed as well. The OBJ format is
inherently immune to such things, but the resulting Generic3DModel
will still break in the end...

Frank.
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Open Source RB Goodies and Shareware
<http://developer.chaoticbox.com/>
<http://www.chaoticbox.com/>
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 03:41 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 21:41:57 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 6:48 PM -0400 6/14/05, Frank Condello wrote:

>I found a couple problems in the 3DS loader and hacked it up to work
>with my test models but I'll have to look at the format specs more
>closely to ensure it won't break in other cases. I didn't want to
>bug you (Joe S.) with this during the Rb2005 crunch, but there were
>two issues: UVs weren't being saved into the Generic3DModel
>structure, and triangle indices were wrong for all but the first
>trimesh (3DS indices are zero based for each mesh, but
>GenericModel3D uses one big shared vertex list).

I knew that I hadn't added UV support yet. But I didn't know about
the index mistake -- though it makes a lot of sense, now that you
mention it. I had noticed that with some sample models, parts of the
geometry looked fine and others were fubar, but I couldn't figure out
why.

So both these fixes are in the public version of 3DMF Workshop? If
so, I wonder what Joe Nastasi is seeing with his test models...

>There's also a problem with the Generic3DModel class where it'll
>break if a multi-mesh model is imported where some meshes have UVs
>and other meshes don't. This was an oversight in the original
>design, and looks to be a bit of work to fix, but I'll re-work it
>some point. My hacks to the 3DS importer don't account for this type
>of model either, so that'll need to be fixed as well. The OBJ format
>is inherently immune to such things, but the resulting
>Generic3DModel will still break in the end...

Ah. Well, even if it's a known issue that your model must either
have UVs on all meshes or none, it'd still be quite useful to many
people I think.

Best,
- Joe

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 04:27 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:27:51 -0700)
From: Seth Willits
On Jun 14, 2005, at 3:21 PM, Stephen Tallent wrote:

> I, too, am excited because I can now more easily use my current
> win32 modeling tools, but I won't be able to put it to use and
> therefor generate a "this works great!" or "this sux!" response for
> another week or so. But mucho thanks to Frank and Joe for this, I
> will *definitely* be using it.

I think that comes form the small amount of people that use RB3D and
the smaller amount that could/would/do use 3DS. This active part of
this list is only a handful of people. :\


Seth Willits
----------------------------------------------------------
Freak Software - http://www.freaksw.com/
ResExcellence - http://www.resexcellence.com/realbasic/
----------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 04:53 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:53:33 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 14-Jun-05, at 10:41 PM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 6:48 PM -0400 6/14/05, Frank Condello wrote:
>
>> I found a couple problems in the 3DS loader and hacked it up to
>> work with my test models but I'll have to look at the format specs
>> more closely to ensure it won't break in other cases. I didn't
>> want to bug you (Joe S.) with this during the Rb2005 crunch, but
>> there were two issues: UVs weren't being saved into the
>> Generic3DModel structure, and triangle indices were wrong for all
>> but the first trimesh (3DS indices are zero based for each mesh,
>> but GenericModel3D uses one big shared vertex list).
>
> I knew that I hadn't added UV support yet. But I didn't know about
> the index mistake -- though it makes a lot of sense, now that you
> mention it. I had noticed that with some sample models, parts of
> the geometry looked fine and others were fubar, but I couldn't
> figure out why.
>
> So both these fixes are in the public version of 3DMF Workshop?

No - I didn't notice these problems till after the release. Dealing
with the vertex indices is easy enough (just add the current number
of verts in the model to in the index values for each trimesh) but
properly handling the UVs is more involved and my current hack is way
too easy to break.

Frank.
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Open Source RB Goodies and Shareware
<http://developer.chaoticbox.com/>
<http://www.chaoticbox.com/>
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 04:55 (Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:55:13 -0400)
From: Troy Rollins

On Jun 14, 2005, at 11:27 PM, Seth Willits wrote:

> I think that comes form the small amount of people that use RB3D and
> the smaller amount that could/would/do use 3DS. This active part of
> this list is only a handful of people. :\

Well, maybe you'll start to see more people like myself, who are unsure
of Macromedia Director's future and see RB as the logical replacement,
including the fact that RB offers 3D which is somewhat similar to
Director's. I see RS as having a clearly demonstrated dedication to RB,
and its developers, in comparison to pretty much everyone else.

I'm keen to see how RB's display capabilities can be pushed to the
limits. I don't generally do games, but more often things that use
game-like technologies.

I'm interested in voting on spriteSurface and 3D enhancement requests,
if anyone has any favorites.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 06:00 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 01:00:15 -0400)
From: Lars Jensen
> I'm interested in voting on spriteSurface and 3D enhancement requests,
> if anyone has any favorites.

Here's a summary that was done a while ago:

http://ljensen.com/rb/gamedev_outline.htm

I've removed the obsolete stuff -- if anyone wants to vote on their new
faves, I'll dutifully record it.

lj
_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 15:06 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:06:17 -0400)
From: Troy Rollins

On Jun 15, 2005, at 1:00 AM, Lars Jensen wrote:

> Here's a summary that was done a while ago:
>
> http://ljensen.com/rb/gamedev_outline.htm
>
> I've removed the obsolete stuff -- if anyone wants to vote on their new
> faves, I'll dutifully record it.

That is an awesome compilation. Thanks for that Lars. I'm going through
it now.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 11:46 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 06:46:10 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On Jun 14, 2005, at 11:55 PM, Troy Rollins wrote:
> On Jun 14, 2005, at 11:27 PM, Seth Willits wrote:
>
>> I think that comes form the small amount of people that use RB3D and
>> the smaller amount that could/would/do use 3DS. This active part of
>> this list is only a handful of people. :\
>
> Well, maybe you'll start to see more people like myself, who are
> unsure of Macromedia Director's future and see RB as the logical
> replacement, including the fact that RB offers 3D which is somewhat
> similar to Director's. I see RS as having a clearly demonstrated
> dedication to RB, and its developers, in comparison to pretty much
> everyone else.

Troy, it's good you mention this. When we talk of 3D games, everyone
immediately thinks of the cutting edge as it that is the only
definition. Director's 3D was used for a lot of neat things that are no
where near state of the art, but viable regardless.

Since RB is compiled, it will always beat out things like Director when
it comes to performance.

> I'm keen to see how RB's display capabilities can be pushed to the
> limits. I don't generally do games, but more often things that use
> game-like technologies.

This is another area that I think RS even over looks. I did some work
for a company that used RB3D and some declares to display color space
for printing. The proposed enhancements to RB3D would have made the job
even easier.

> I'm interested in voting on spriteSurface and 3D enhancement requests,
> if anyone has any favorites.

My guess is that because SuperSpriteSurface is such a great replacement
for RB's SS and because you can do a lot of sprite like things with
RB3D, you won't see much development in the SS area when compared to
RB3D. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary, do not try this at
home...

:-)

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 14:32 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 08:32:11 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 11:53 PM -0400 6/14/05, Frank Condello wrote:

>>So both these fixes are in the public version of 3DMF Workshop?
>
>No - I didn't notice these problems till after the release. Dealing
>with the vertex indices is easy enough (just add the current number
>of verts in the model to in the index values for each trimesh) but
>properly handling the UVs is more involved and my current hack is
>way too easy to break.

Aha. Well, why not send at least Joe Nastasi your current build, so
he can see if the geometry on his models is now read correctly. I
knew UV was going to be more work, which is why I didn't attempt to
handle it right off. :)

Thanks,
- Joe

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 14:48 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:48:04 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On Jun 15, 2005, at 9:32 AM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 11:53 PM -0400 6/14/05, Frank Condello wrote:
>> No - I didn't notice these problems till after the release. Dealing
>> with the vertex indices is easy enough (just add the current number
>> of verts in the model to in the index values for each trimesh) but
>> properly handling the UVs is more involved and my current hack is way
>> too easy to break.
>
> Aha. Well, why not send at least Joe Nastasi your current build, so
> he can see if the geometry on his models is now read correctly. I
> knew UV was going to be more work, which is why I didn't attempt to
> handle it right off. :)

I'll certainly give a whack, Frank. If it fails, I'll pass my simplest
3DS file to you and Joe.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 14:57 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:57:44 -0400)
From: Troy Rollins

On Jun 15, 2005, at 6:46 AM, Joseph Nastasi wrote:

>> I'm interested in voting on spriteSurface and 3D enhancement
>> requests, if anyone has any favorites.
>
> My guess is that because SuperSpriteSurface is such a great
> replacement for RB's SS and because you can do a lot of sprite like
> things with RB3D, you won't see much development in the SS area when
> compared to RB3D. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary, do not try
> this at home...

I completely agree that using openGL for 2D can be an amazing
optimization, but am I missing something? Isn't SSS Mac-only, and
remaining at version 1.0 with no apparent development since it was
released some time ago?

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 15:09 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:09:35 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On Jun 15, 2005, at 9:57 AM, Troy Rollins wrote:

>
> On Jun 15, 2005, at 6:46 AM, Joseph Nastasi wrote:
>
>>> I'm interested in voting on spriteSurface and 3D enhancement
>>> requests, if anyone has any favorites.
>>
>> My guess is that because SuperSpriteSurface is such a great
>> replacement for RB's SS and because you can do a lot of sprite like
>> things with RB3D, you won't see much development in the SS area when
>> compared to RB3D. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary, do not try
>> this at home...
>
> I completely agree that using openGL for 2D can be an amazing
> optimization, but am I missing something? Isn't SSS Mac-only, and
> remaining at version 1.0 with no apparent development since it was
> released some time ago?

I'm not sure of it's platform limitations, but it's true that it hasn't
been updated for a while. IMHO, I think the utility of a sprite surface
goes down once you figure out how to do it in RB3D. Even with the
current API, there is a lot more functionality. But the learning curve
is steeper.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 15:24 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:24:09 -0400)
From: Troy Rollins

On Jun 15, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Joseph Nastasi wrote:

>> I completely agree that using openGL for 2D can be an amazing
>> optimization, but am I missing something? Isn't SSS Mac-only, and
>> remaining at version 1.0 with no apparent development since it was
>> released some time ago?
>
> I'm not sure of it's platform limitations, but it's true that it
> hasn't been updated for a while. IMHO, I think the utility of a sprite
> surface goes down once you figure out how to do it in RB3D. Even with
> the current API, there is a lot more functionality. But the learning
> curve is steeper.

Thats true Joseph. I agree, and it seems a logical movement for
optimized graphics display. When I originally saw SSS, I thought, now
there is a logical transition, and a great way to open up RB to all
sorts of display optimized features. I guess I was hoping that we would
see a more uniform API for treating the RB3D in the same fashion and
coordinate system as a SpriteSurface, or that someone would have
packaged up a cross platform set of classes which make RB3D a little
less of an obstacle when you really just want fast and smooth 2D
performance.

It currently seems like there is a long way to go, and a lot to learn
if each of us has to do this for themselves. I'm busy learning just
how to use a canvas and the graphics class properly!! (since I use
features like this a lot in my Director background.) I'd rather buy a
reasonably-priced API and start using it... or encourage RS to build it
in. ;-)

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 15:40 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:40:42 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On Jun 15, 2005, at 10:24 AM, Troy Rollins wrote:
> Thats true Joseph. I agree, and it seems a logical movement for
> optimized graphics display. When I originally saw SSS, I thought, now
> there is a logical transition, and a great way to open up RB to all
> sorts of display optimized features. I guess I was hoping that we
> would see a more uniform API for treating the RB3D in the same fashion
> and coordinate system as a SpriteSurface, or that someone would have
> packaged up a cross platform set of classes which make RB3D a little
> less of an obstacle when you really just want fast and smooth 2D
> performance.

That's actually a good idea: a sprite wrapper class for RB3D. I like
that.

> . I'm busy learning just how to use a canvas and the graphics class
> properly!! (since I use features like this a lot in my Director
> background.)

Be cautious about using the Graphics class for real time applications,
though. I learned the hard way, The Graphics class does not make use of
any hardware acceleration. In my REALbasic Developer column, I'm
writing about a library that allows you to create and update an
instrument panel. When I first implemented it a couple of years ago, I
used the Canvas class to draw it. After only seven instruments on the
panel, the demo slowed down considerably. I modified the library to use
RB3D and use Object3D.AddShapePictureWithMask. Flies like the wind now.

Though in my early years I was an assembly language and C programmer, I
came to REALbasic after using HyperCard as my only development tool for
many years. Knowing a bit about Director, I imagine you are going
through the same evolution I did.

My advice would be to orient yourself to use RB3D for any graphics
stuff that requires speed, which in game or real-time simulation, is
every thing except application UI.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 15:41 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 09:41:26 -0500)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 10:24 AM -0400 6/15/05, Troy Rollins wrote:

>I guess I was hoping that we would see a more uniform API for
>treating the RB3D in the same fashion and coordinate system as a
>SpriteSurface, or that someone would have packaged up a cross
>platform set of classes which make RB3D a little less of an obstacle
>when you really just want fast and smooth 2D performance.

But you realize that it takes only about half a dozen lines to set an
Rb3DSpace up that way, right? It's even covered in the Rb3D FAQ.
See:

<http://www.strout.net/info/coding/rb/>

If you want a good example of this used in a real app, check out Armageddon:

<http://www.codenautics.com/armageddon/>

(Source code is available at the same place.)

Best,
- Joe

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 16:00 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 11:00:35 -0400)
From: Troy Rollins

On Jun 15, 2005, at 10:41 AM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> But you realize that it takes only about half a dozen lines to set an
> Rb3DSpace up that way, right? It's even covered in the Rb3D FAQ. See:
>
> <http://www.strout.net/info/coding/rb/>

Thanks, I'll look at that too..

>
> If you want a good example of this used in a real app, check out
> Armageddon:
>
> <http://www.codenautics.com/armageddon/>
> (Source code is available at the same place.)

I've looked at that game, and played it (very fun.) It has great
performance too.

I'm sure you guys are right, and that the 3DSpace is the direction I
want to go, but when shifting between tools it is pretty natural to
head for the parts that look familiar or similar to the other tools you
use. Canvas looks and behaves a lot like Director's "Stage",
unfortunately, it isn't performing like it. I may be able to get
through this current project using a Canvas and Graphics, but I can
already see some significant limitations in performance for fast
updates.

The project I am working on actually IS a game, come to think of it.
The moderator will have a control screen, made up of standard controls.
The audience will see another window, projected full-screen. That
window is entirely drawn through Graphics, and shows scores, etc.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 19:00 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:00:40 -0400)
From: John Balestrieri
A recent update on my site will answer both of your questions:

http://www.tinrocket.com/products/superspritesurface/news/00187/

John

On Jun 15, 2005, at 9:57 AM, Troy Rollins wrote:

> I completely agree that using openGL for 2D can be an amazing
> optimization, but am I missing something? Isn't SSS Mac-only, and
> remaining at version 1.0 with no apparent development since it was
> released some time ago?
> --

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 19:07 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:07:45 -0400)
From: Troy Rollins

On Jun 15, 2005, at 2:00 PM, John Balestrieri wrote:

> A recent update on my site will answer both of your questions:
>
> http://www.tinrocket.com/products/superspritesurface/news/00187/
>
> John

Extremely interesting. Thanks for the update.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 19:07 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:07:49 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 15-Jun-05, at 9:32 AM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 11:53 PM -0400 6/14/05, Frank Condello wrote:
>
>>> So both these fixes are in the public version of 3DMF Workshop?
>>
>> No - I didn't notice these problems till after the release.
>> Dealing with the vertex indices is easy enough (just add the
>> current number of verts in the model to in the index values for
>> each trimesh) but properly handling the UVs is more involved and
>> my current hack is way too easy to break.
>
> Aha. Well, why not send at least Joe Nastasi your current build,
> so he can see if the geometry on his models is now read correctly.
> I knew UV was going to be more work, which is why I didn't attempt
> to handle it right off. :)

Here's a fresh Generic3DFormat3DS module: <http://
developer.chaoticbox.com/files/realbasic/Generic3DFormat3DS.zip> I
stripped out the UV code (it really was brutal!) but this loads
geometry OK in my tests. If anyone has a 3DS model that doesn't
import correctly please send it over, but also keep in mind this app
only likes triangles at this point.

I'm also curious to see how the OBJ loader handles OBJ files exported
from Lightwave and Maya, so if anyone has access to either of those
apps and is willing to help please contact me off-list.

Frank.
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Open Source RB Goodies and Shareware
<http://developer.chaoticbox.com/>
<http://www.chaoticbox.com/>
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 19:22 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:22:24 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 15-Jun-05, at 6:46 AM, Joseph Nastasi wrote:

> Since RB is compiled, it will always beat out things like Director
> when it comes to performance.

Not necessarily...

The stuff you write in RB code should be faster than equivilant stuff
scripted in Director, but Director's core 3D engine is compiled code,
so which is faster depends on the efficiency of Rb3D/Quesa vs.
Shockwave3D, and whether or not the scripted logic is a bigger
bottleneck than the renderer. Many game engines use interpreted
languages and/or virtual machines to drive the 3D display (Quake 1/3,
Unreal, Torque, to name a few) and they certainly perform well.

Frank.
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Open Source RB Goodies and Shareware
<http://developer.chaoticbox.com/>
<http://www.chaoticbox.com/>
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

_______________________________________________
Unsubscribe or switch delivery mode:
<http://www.realsoftware.com/support/listmanager/>

Search the archives of this list here:
<http://support.realsoftware.com/listarchives/lists.html>

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 19:37 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:37:10 -0400)
From: Joseph Nastasi

On Jun 15, 2005, at 2:22 PM, Frank Condello wrote:

> On 15-Jun-05, at 6:46 AM, Joseph Nastasi wrote:
>
>> Since RB is compiled, it will always beat out things like Director
>> when it comes to performance.
>
> Not necessarily...
>
> The stuff you write in RB code should be faster than equivilant stuff
> scripted in Director, but Director's core 3D engine is compiled code,
> so which is faster depends on the efficiency of Rb3D/Quesa vs.
> Shockwave3D, and whether or not the scripted logic is a bigger
> bottleneck than the renderer.

True. I'm just going by the fact that Lingo was always known as slow
boat to China. That's going back at least 5 years though.

Re: model formats (was Re: What about REALbasic 2005?)
Date: 15.06.05 19:47 (Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:47:41 -0400)
From: Troy Rollins

On Jun 15, 2005, at 2:22 PM, Frank Condello wrote:

> The stuff you write in RB code should be faster than equivilant stuff
> scripted in Director, but Director's core 3D engine is compiled code,
> so which is faster depends on the efficiency of Rb3D/Quesa vs.
> Shockwave3D, and whether or not the scripted logic is a bigger
> bottleneck than the renderer. Many game engines use interpreted
> languages and/or virtual machines to drive the 3D display (Quake 1/3,
> Unreal, Torque, to name a few) and they certainly perform well.

I'd considered mentioning that.

To be honest, I don't see either Shockwave, or Quesa as being
particularly cutting-edge, but they both have tools which can let us do
some really interesting things.

The Lingo portion of things is certainly slower than RB's compiled
code, but that doesn't factor into 3D all that much... calculating
transformations and stuff I suppose.