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OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors (Real Studio games Mailinglist archive)

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[ANN] Preview of RBD 2.4   -   Marc Zeedar
  OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Frank Condello
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Frank Condello
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Chris Dillman
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Frank Condello
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Frank Condello
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Frank Condello
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Frank Condello
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Jeff Quan
   Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors   -   Lo Saeteurn
   remove   -   James Nelson

OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 01:09 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:09:35 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
Hello,

Does anyone know if vertex colors are supported for OBJ or 3DS? I'm
trying to support vertex lighting in my game and it would be much
easier if I didn't have to calculate fixed lights myself. I'm not
exactly sure how to calculate lighting based on vertex position and
normals.

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 02:47 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:47:10 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 15-Aug-05, at 8:09 PM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:

> Does anyone know if vertex colors are supported for OBJ or 3DS? I'm
> trying to support vertex lighting in my game and it would be much
> easier if I didn't have to calculate fixed lights myself. I'm not
> exactly sure how to calculate lighting based on vertex position and
> normals.

I'm 99% sure OBJ does not support this, but I'm pretty sure 3DS does.
Whether or not you can find a 3D app that can bake lighting into
vertex colours and export that information in the 3DS format is
another question...

Calculating vertex lighting yourself isn't terribly difficult though.
Here's an old but useful reference: <http://www.flipcode.com/articles/
article_doinglighting.shtml>. Shadows/occlusion are a little more
work, but if you're pre-processing the lighting doing brute-force ray/
triangle tests for every vertex from every light will do just fine.

Frank.
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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 03:25 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 19:25:47 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn

On Aug 15, 2005, at 6:47 PM, Frank Condello wrote:

> On 15-Aug-05, at 8:09 PM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know if vertex colors are supported for OBJ or 3DS?
>> I'm trying to support vertex lighting in my game and it would be
>> much easier if I didn't have to calculate fixed lights myself. I'm
>> not exactly sure how to calculate lighting based on vertex
>> position and normals.
>>
> I'm 99% sure OBJ does not support this, but I'm pretty sure 3DS
> does. Whether or not you can find a 3D app that can bake lighting
> into vertex colours and export that information in the 3DS format
> is another question...

Thanks for the information. I was told 3DS Max supports vertex
colors, but I'll have to test it myself to see if it exports that
information. Does 3DMF Workshop import the vertex colors?

> Calculating vertex lighting yourself isn't terribly difficult
> though. Here's an old but useful reference: <http://
> www.flipcode.com/articles/article_doinglighting.shtml>.

Thanks. I'll take a look if it's the last resort. Does it include
directional lights? Not very important as the dynamic lights should
work just fine since not many directional lights should really be
needed.

> Shadows/occlusion are a little more work

These would be really great to have, but I'm not skilled enough to do
these. I'm willing to pay anyone to willing do it for me.

> but if you're pre-processing the lighting doing brute-force ray/
> triangle tests for every vertex from every light will do just fine.

Yep, preprocessed lights.

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 03:56 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:56:35 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 15-Aug-05, at 10:25 PM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:

> Does 3DMF Workshop import the vertex colors?

No, but it should be doable. This would require a bit of work though,
since the Generic3D classes don't take vertex colours into account at
this point. So the core, the importer, and the exporter would all
have to be updated for this to work.

>> Calculating vertex lighting yourself isn't terribly difficult
>> though. Here's an old but useful reference: <http://
>> www.flipcode.com/articles/article_doinglighting.shtml>.
>
> Thanks. I'll take a look if it's the last resort. Does it include
> directional lights? Not very important as the dynamic lights should
> work just fine since not many directional lights should really be
> needed.

I can't recall if it does, but directional lights are similar to
attenuated lights (and typically require less math). That article
also details more that you'll probably need, like the specular
component, and spot lights.

>> Shadows/occlusion are a little more work
>
> These would be really great to have, but I'm not skilled enough to
> do these. I'm willing to pay anyone to willing do it for me.

I'm not talking real-time DOOM 3 type shadows, but determining
whether a static vertex is lit by a static light is relatively
straightforward. Since you're pre-processing it doesn't even have to
be fast (which makes things even easier). It just comes down to doing
a bunch of ray-triangle collision tests to see if a particular light
affects a particular vertex.

Frank.
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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 04:18 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 20:18:28 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
>> Does 3DMF Workshop import the vertex colors?
>
> No, but it should be doable. This would require a bit of work
> though, since the Generic3D classes don't take vertex colours into
> account at this point. So the core, the importer, and the exporter
> would all have to be updated for this to work.

Hmm...Well I guess there's really no way to test if 3DS Max even
exports the vertex colors. I don't want to waste time working on this
to find out that 3DS Max doesn't even export the information. Is
there another program I can use that would show this?

>> Thanks. I'll take a look if it's the last resort. Does it include
>> directional lights? Not very important as the dynamic lights
>> should work just fine since not many directional lights should
>> really be needed.
>>
> I can't recall if it does, but directional lights are similar to
> attenuated lights (and typically require less math). That article
> also details more that you'll probably need, like the specular
> component, and spot lights.

Alright. They're not really needed since dynamic lighting should work
just find. You shouldn't really need more than 1 or 2 anyways.

I guess a global point light should work just fine at a huge
distance. I do see that it is actually easier to calculate.

>> These would be really great to have, but I'm not skilled enough to
>> do these. I'm willing to pay anyone to willing do it for me.
>
> I'm not talking real-time DOOM 3 type shadows

Of course not.

> but determining whether a static vertex is lit by a static light is
> relatively straightforward. Since you're pre-processing it doesn't
> even have to be fast (which makes things even easier). It just
> comes down to doing a bunch of ray-triangle collision tests to see
> if a particular light affects a particular vertex.

What about occluders? How do I calculate if something is blocking the
light?

I don't really mind waiting even an hour to calculating this for a
small sized town. Would it be feasible to use the FindPoint method
(of RB3D space) to test whether a light hits a given vertex? I could
point the camera at a vertex and see if the findPoint returns a value
relatively close to the vertex (test only the z difference from the
camera). Of course I would have to ignore all the objects out of view
before doing the findpoint test.

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 04:25 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:25:27 -0500)
From: Chris Dillman

Ok I thought it was 3DS supports vertex colors.
This is not to say that it supports exporting a model that is lit up by lights.
But that it supports vertex colors set by HAND.

AT least from scanning all this i got that someone wants the lighting
from the lights in a scene saved on the model.

Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 05:02 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:02:00 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn

On Aug 15, 2005, at 8:25 PM, Chris Dillman wrote:

>
> Ok I thought it was 3DS supports vertex colors.
> This is not to say that it supports exporting a model that is lit
> up by lights.
> But that it supports vertex colors set by HAND.

Hmm...well that's not good. Do you know if 3DS Max supports it with
lights (not by hand)?

> AT least from scanning all this i got that someone wants the
> lighting from the lights in a scene saved on the model.

Yes, or at least saved somewhere that can be easily read.

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 05:30 (Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:30:15 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 15-Aug-05, at 11:18 PM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:

>>> Does 3DMF Workshop import the vertex colors?
>>
>> No, but it should be doable. This would require a bit of work
>> though, since the Generic3D classes don't take vertex colours into
>> account at this point. So the core, the importer, and the exporter
>> would all have to be updated for this to work.
>
> Hmm...Well I guess there's really no way to test if 3DS Max even
> exports the vertex colors. I don't want to waste time working on
> this to find out that 3DS Max doesn't even export the information.
> Is there another program I can use that would show this?

I guess you could export a 3DS from Max, then re-open it to see if
the colours are still there...

> I guess a global point light should work just fine at a huge
> distance. I do see that it is actually easier to calculate.

All you would do for a directional light is use a constant direction
vector instead of calculating a vector from the light origin to the
vertex. Well that, plus don't attenuate the colour.

> What about occluders? How do I calculate if something is blocking
> the light?

First you need a method to do a line-triangle collision test (a
Google for "line segment triangle intersection" should turn up a few
algorithms). Then you process each vertex for each light like so:
(psuedo-code)

for each light in world
for each vertex in world.mesh

line = CalculateRay(light, vertex)
addlightcontribution = True

for each triangle in world.mesh
if line.Intersects(triangle) then
addlightcontribution = False
exit
end if
next

if addlightcontribution then
vertex.colour = vertex.colour + CalculateContribution(light,
vertex)
end if

next// Vertex
next// Light

That's the gist of it anyway, you should do a distance test to ensure
a vertex is potentially lit by a light before doing all the triangle
collision tests, and add early rejection tests for vertex normals
that face away from the light, etc.

> I don't really mind waiting even an hour to calculating this for a
> small sized town.

It would likely be much faster than that (even per-pixel lightmaps
rarely take that long nowadays).

> Would it be feasible to use the FindPoint method (of RB3D space) to
> test whether a light hits a given vertex? I could point the camera
> at a vertex and see if the findPoint returns a value relatively
> close to the vertex (test only the z difference from the camera).
> Of course I would have to ignore all the objects out of view before
> doing the findpoint test.

That could work, but requires that you actually draw the scene a
whole bunch of times, and the accuracy would be questionable when
converting from screen coordinates. It'd probably be faster and safer
to just do the math yourself.

Frank.
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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 05:31 (Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:31:56 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 15-Aug-05, at 11:25 PM, Chris Dillman wrote:

> Ok I thought it was 3DS supports vertex colors.
> This is not to say that it supports exporting a model that is lit
> up by lights.
> But that it supports vertex colors set by HAND.

Right, whether or not you can bake lighting into the vertex colours
is up to the software you're using. I'm not familiar with Max, but
I'm pretty sure some other 3D apps support this sort of thing.

> AT least from scanning all this i got that someone wants the
> lighting from the lights in a scene saved on the model.

Yup, and that's a reasonable expectation, though the only way to
ensure you get the result you want is to do it yourself.

Frank.
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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 05:51 (Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:51:13 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
>> What about occluders? How do I calculate if something is blocking
>> the light?
>
> First you need a method to do a line-triangle collision test (a
> Google for "line segment triangle intersection" should turn up a
> few algorithms). Then you process each vertex for each light like
> so: (psuedo-code)
>
> for each light in world
> for each vertex in world.mesh
>
> line = CalculateRay(light, vertex)
> addlightcontribution = True
>
> for each triangle in world.mesh
> if line.Intersects(triangle) then
> addlightcontribution = False
> exit
> end if
> next
>
> if addlightcontribution then
> vertex.colour = vertex.colour + CalculateContribution
> (light, vertex)
> end if
>
> next// Vertex
> next// Light
>
> That's the gist of it anyway, you should do a distance test to
> ensure a vertex is potentially lit by a light before doing all the
> triangle collision tests, and add early rejection tests for vertex
> normals that face away from the light, etc.

Thanks for the tip.

>> Would it be feasible to use the FindPoint method (of RB3D space)
>> to test whether a light hits a given vertex? I could point the
>> camera at a vertex and see if the findPoint returns a value
>> relatively close to the vertex (test only the z difference from
>> the camera). Of course I would have to ignore all the objects out
>> of view before doing the findpoint test.
>>
> That could work, but requires that you actually draw the scene a
> whole bunch of times, and the accuracy would be questionable when
> converting from screen coordinates. It'd probably be faster and
> safer to just do the math yourself.

Okay I'll do this first since it is easier. My math skills has faded
over the years. If I don't like the results then I'll use the faster
more accurate method.

What if an object has been rotated? Is there an easier way to get a
vertex's actual position?

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 08:12 (Tue, 16 Aug 2005 03:12:17 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 16-Aug-05, at 12:51 AM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:

> What if an object has been rotated? Is there an easier way to get a
> vertex's actual position?

You pretty much have to run the vertex and normal through the same
rotation matrix. I'm not sure if Quesa has methods to let you can
extract the appropriate matrix so this might be a bit of a pain (or a
major pain if the object is transformed by one or more parent
groups). You'll have to take scaling into account as well... :/

Everything's *much* easier if all static geometry is already in
worldspace before giving it to Quesa. Static geometry is also more
efficient this way since Quesa won't have to do redundant transforms
every frame. I know this may not be practical based on stuff you've
previously posted here (e.g. your modular world editor) but a little
more pre-processing to get vertexes into worldsapce from the get-go
can prevent a lot of headaches later on.

Frank.
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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 16.08.05 18:30 (Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:30:06 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
Alright. Thanks for your help. I'll give it a shot.

> You pretty much have to run the vertex and normal through the same
> rotation matrix. I'm not sure if Quesa has methods to let you can
> extract the appropriate matrix so this might be a bit of a pain (or
> a major pain if the object is transformed by one or more parent
> groups). You'll have to take scaling into account as well... :/
>
> Everything's *much* easier if all static geometry is already in
> worldspace before giving it to Quesa. Static geometry is also more
> efficient this way since Quesa won't have to do redundant
> transforms every frame. I know this may not be practical based on
> stuff you've previously posted here (e.g. your modular world
> editor) but a little more pre-processing to get vertexes into
> worldsapce from the get-go can prevent a lot of headaches later on.

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 20.08.05 18:03 (Sat, 20 Aug 2005 10:03:51 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
Thanks for your help Frank!

I've been working on this on and off for the past few days it it
seems to work now using an accurate Ray-Triangle test. I can set a
point light and it is able to cast vertex lights along with vertex
shadows. If I want spot lights, it can be easily achieved by putting
an object behind the light.

The next step is to expand on this and create per pixel lighting by
ray-tracing the entire scene and generating a mesh-based lightmap,
but I'll leave this for another day if I decide to do it...

On Aug 16, 2005, at 10:30 AM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:

> Alright. Thanks for your help. I'll give it a shot.
>
>> You pretty much have to run the vertex and normal through the same
>> rotation matrix. I'm not sure if Quesa has methods to let you can
>> extract the appropriate matrix so this might be a bit of a pain
>> (or a major pain if the object is transformed by one or more
>> parent groups). You'll have to take scaling into account as
>> well... :/
>>
>> Everything's *much* easier if all static geometry is already in
>> worldspace before giving it to Quesa. Static geometry is also more
>> efficient this way since Quesa won't have to do redundant
>> transforms every frame. I know this may not be practical based on
>> stuff you've previously posted here (e.g. your modular world
>> editor) but a little more pre-processing to get vertexes into
>> worldsapce from the get-go can prevent a lot of headaches later on.
>>
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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 21.08.05 04:20 (Sat, 20 Aug 2005 23:20:59 -0400)
From: Frank Condello
On 20-Aug-05, at 1:03 PM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:

> I've been working on this on and off for the past few days it it
> seems to work now using an accurate Ray-Triangle test. I can set a
> point light and it is able to cast vertex lights along with vertex
> shadows.

Please post some screenshots when you've got something to show - I'm
curious to see the results!

> The next step is to expand on this and create per pixel lighting by
> ray-tracing the entire scene and generating a mesh-based lightmap,
> but I'll leave this for another day if I decide to do it...

Not sure what you mean by a "mesh-based" lightmap (a highly
tessellated version of the original mesh?) Either way it's pretty
much impossible to render per-pixel lightmaps through Quesa, as it
only allows one texture per triangle (and one set of UV's for that
matter).

Frank.
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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 21.08.05 05:53 (Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:53:24 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
Well, it doesn't light properly if the object has been rotated.

Here's how I'm transforming the vertices (after I getting it from the
vertex list of a Trimesh) to match what you see in the world:

******START OF CODE
dim q,q2 as Quaternion, Scale, mYaw, mPitch as double
dim Pnt as vector3D

Pnt.MultiplyBy Scale //scale it to its current scale
//rotate the vertex <--- The rotation
code starts here
q=new Quaternion
q2=new Quaternion
q2.SetRotateAboutAxis 0,1,0,mYaw//yaw it this amount
q=q2.Times(q)
q2.SetRotateAboutAxis 1,0,0,mPitch//then pitch it upward
q=q2.Times(q)
Pnt.Copy q.Transform(Pnt)
//-- <---
The rotation code ends here
Pnt.Add Position //translate the point to world coordinates
******END OF CODE

To get to its proper rotation, I yaw the object first then pitch it
by the same mYaw and mPitch values. mYaw and mPitch are in radians.
I'm trying to do the same to the vertices, but it is not working
correctly.

What am I doing wrong?

> Please post some screenshots when you've got something to show -
> I'm curious to see the results!

Sure. The default light color is the ambient color * ambient light.
Each light that hits a vertex is added onto the current vertex color.
The lighting is a bit different because of the specular light
(shininess) on the original models. After rendering, I turned on
NullShading so that RB/Quesa's dynamic lights do not affect it. I
didn't have my own scenes yet to test with so I hope Jeff and Joe
don't mind me using theirs (from Renegades).

Before:
http://www.miensoftware.com/darkawakening/vertexlight/screen1.jpg

After:
http://www.miensoftware.com/darkawakening/vertexlight/screen2.jpg
http://www.miensoftware.com/darkawakening/vertexlight/screen3.jpg

Before:
http://www.miensoftware.com/darkawakening/vertexlight/screen4.jpg

After:
http://www.miensoftware.com/darkawakening/vertexlight/screen5.jpg
http://www.miensoftware.com/darkawakening/vertexlight/screen6.jpg

>> The next step is to expand on this and create per pixel lighting
>> by ray-tracing the entire scene and generating a mesh-based
>> lightmap, but I'll leave this for another day if I decide to do it...
>>
> Not sure what you mean by a "mesh-based" lightmap (a highly
> tessellated version of the original mesh?)

A mesh generated by the rays hitting a surface. Or, instead, attach
the new points onto the mesh that the ray hits so that the shadows
are sharper and more accurate.

> Either way it's pretty much impossible to render per-pixel
> lightmaps through Quesa, as it only allows one texture per triangle
> (and one set of UV's for that matter).

That's what I mean. Since Quesa cannot support multiple UVs, the 2nd
texture must be on a separate mesh that is slightly shifted over the
original. Since we know where the ray hits, a mesh can be generated
over the original surface with a light map texture.

This already sounds complex, but I'll leave it for another day to
tackle if I really feel it is needed.

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 21.08.05 06:16 (Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:16:16 -0700)
From: Jeff Quan

On Aug 20, 2005, at 9:53 PM, Lo Saeteurn wrote:
> I didn't have my own scenes yet to test with so I hope Jeff and Joe
> don't mind me using theirs (from Renegades).

For testing, go right ahead and use the art. For actual game use,
that's where we start talking licensing... :)

Your images are great. I hope you're able to get a working lightmap
going. You'd be doing with code what I was contemplating of doing by
hand in Renegades -- having another mesh holding a light/shadow texture
map. If you look around Renegades, there are several meshes that have
that, but nothing too ambitious.

=Jeff Quan
<email address removed>

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Re: OBJ and 3DS support for vertex colors
Date: 21.08.05 06:38 (Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:38:39 -0700)
From: Lo Saeteurn
> For testing, go right ahead and use the art.

Thanks.

> For actual game use, that's where we start talking licensing...

Of course :-)

> Your images are great. I hope you're able to get a working lightmap
> going.

Yes, it seems really complicated to do.

> You'd be doing with code what I was contemplating of doing by hand
> in Renegades -- having another mesh holding a light/shadow texture
> map. If you look around Renegades, there are several meshes that
> have that, but nothing too ambitious.

I noticed those.

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