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REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields (Real Studio network user group Mailinglist archive)

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Localized strings in tabpanel   -   Jan Erik Moström <
  REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Navdeep Bains
   Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Joseph J. Strout
    Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Kevin Ballard
    Re: Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Navdeep Bains
     Re: Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Thomas Reed
     Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Kevin Ballard
      Re: Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Navdeep Bains
   Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   Will Leshner
   Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields   -   David Grogono

REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 20:31 (Fri, 31 May 2002 12:31:11 -0700)
From: Navdeep Bains
Hello,

I'm a longtime REALBasic developer who's switching to Carbon builds. I'm designing my new applications, and redesigning my old applications, so that the same build will run seamlessly in both OS 9 & OS X.

After releasing Bad Cookie!(one of my apps), I decided to switch to REALBasic 4(which I had already paid for). RB 3.5.2 wasn't anti-aliasing text in single-line editfields under OS X, and that made the text difficult to read in Apple's suggested System 11. I released Bad Cookie! 1.1 after building it in RB 4.

I launched the application under OS 9 a few days later, and was surprised to see all of my editfield text "squished together", and very difficult to read. This isn't that big of a deal in Bad Cookie!, since I only use 3 or 4 editfields, but it will have a significant effect in my other applications.

For example, I was planning on releasing Cram Session, a flash card/quizzing app this Monday. Since the objective of the application is to help the user memorize information, hard to read text is a fatal blow to the application's usability. I also develop an email application, and the same is true there.

I've uploaded a snapshot of Cram Session to demonstrate my point:
http://www.bainsware.com/images/cramcompare.gif

The one of the left is the Carbon build, and the Classic build is on the right.

The only workaround I can see is to release both a OS 9 version and an OS X version. This is a hassle for both me and the user, and it shouldn't be necessary. I just downloaded REAL's latest Alpha, and was again surprised, this time because the issue has yet to be resolved!

If something as rudimentary as editfields aren't working properly, stop and fix them before moving on! If this isn't resolved by 4.5 Final, I won't be purchasing the upgrade.

Anyway, does anyone know of any workarounds? Is there a version of RB that anti-aliases editfield text under X, but still displays text correctly under 9? I only have 3.5.2, and 4+; perhaps there's a version in between?

Thanks in advance,
Navdeep Bains

Bains Software
http://www.bainsware.com
mailto:<email address removed>

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Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 20:45 (Fri, 31 May 2002 12:45:14 -0700)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 12:31 PM -0700 5/31/02, Navdeep Bains wrote:

>After releasing Bad Cookie!(one of my apps), I decided to switch to
>REALBasic 4(which I had already paid for). RB 3.5.2 wasn't
>anti-aliasing text in single-line editfields under OS X, and that
>made the text difficult to read in Apple's suggested System 11...

Yep.

> I released Bad Cookie! 1.1 after building it in RB 4.
>
>I launched the application under OS 9 a few days later, and was
>surprised to see all of my editfield text "squished together", and
>very difficult to read.

It's not really squished, it's just rendered poorly. The Carbon
EditFields are based on a technology known as ATSUI, which does all
sorts of great things like supporting Unicode text and handling
mixtures of writing systems (including those that go right-to-left)
within a single paragraph, etc. It's also designed to be
typographically accurate, such that what you see on the screen is as
good an approximation as possible to what would come out on the
printer.

Unfortunately, one thing it doesn't do is pay attention to the bitmap
screen font information embedded in most of Apple's standard fonts.
Those bitmaps are what QuickDraw uses to make text look so sharp and
consistent (though typographically unfaithful). But ATSUI can't use
it; it's rendering the text directly from the vector definitions of
each glyph. Under OS X, with its advanced CoreGraphics rendering,
this looks good. Under OS 9, with the graphics architecture ATSUI
has to work with, it looks pretty bad at small font sizes.

Apple apparently has no plans to fix this.

So, my recommendation (for other reasons as well as this one) is
this: make your Carbon app, and recommend it for users running OS X.
Also build a Classic version, and recommend that for users running OS
8-9.

>The only workaround I can see is to release both a OS 9 version and
>an OS X version. This is a hassle for both me and the user, and it
>shouldn't be necessary.

And yet it is. For many other reasons besides this one (e.g.,
balloon help, which users of 8-9 rightfully expect, doesn't work in
Carbon apps -- and no, don't blame us for that one either).

>If something as rudimentary as editfields aren't working properly,
>stop and fix them before moving on! If this isn't resolved by 4.5
>Final, I won't be purchasing the upgrade.

They are working as properly as they can work. We can't "fix" them
because they're not broken; you could argue that ATSUI is, but as
noted above, the odds of that ever changing are pretty much nil.

But I recommend you look at what 4.5 has to offer anyway; there is a
whole lot of great new stuff (and fixes for old problems).

Cheers,
- Joe

Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 20:53 (Fri, 31 May 2002 15:53:29 -0400)
From: Kevin Ballard
On 5/31/02 3:45 PM, "Joseph J. Strout" <<email address removed>> wrote:

> But I recommend you look at what 4.5 has to offer anyway; there is a
> whole lot of great new stuff (and fixes for old problems).

Hear hear. 4.5 is shaping up to be an excellent release! All you folks here
should buy it when it comes out!

Re: Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 21:48 (Fri, 31 May 2002 13:48:24 -0700)
From: Navdeep Bains
> Apple apparently has no plans to fix this.

Bummer.

> And yet it is. For many other reasons besides this one (e.g.,
> balloon help, which users of 8-9 rightfully expect, doesn't work in
> Carbon apps -- and no, don't blame us for that one either).

Oh come on, I've never used Balloon Help in my life :)
(As a user or a programmer)

There's really no reason not to build a single Carbon version of some applications(certainly not suitable for others), other than REALBasic compiler issues.

> They are working as properly as they can work. We can't "fix" them
> because they're not broken; you could argue that ATSUI is, but as
> noted above, the odds of that ever changing are pretty much nil.

Why not detect that the app is running under OS 9, and switch to the old technology? Is that possible? I feel that this is a really important issue, and if there's any way to fix it, you should.

> But I recommend you look at what 4.5 has to offer anyway; there is a
> whole lot of great new stuff (and fixes for old problems).

Bah, I always do(buy the new versions, that is), regardless of what I say :)

> Cheers,
> - Joe
> --
> ,------------------------------------------------------------------.
> | Joseph J. Strout REAL Software, Inc. |
> | <email address removed> http://www.realsoftware.com |
> `------------------------------------------------------------------'

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Re: Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 01.06.02 19:04 (Sat, 1 Jun 2002 13:04:50 -0500)
From: Thomas Reed
>There's really no reason not to build a single Carbon version of some
>applications(certainly not suitable for others), other than REALBasic
>compiler issues.

Sure there is! Carbon apps just plain don't work as well under OS 9 as
Classic apps do, in my experience. Plus, by releasing a Classic app, you
can support 8.0 and up without any extra effort. (Especially in programs
like yours that don't sound like they use anything added to the OS in 9
and not present in 8.)

The latter is particularly important to many people -- I have two
systems, a PowerBook with OS X and an older desktop with OS 8.6. If I
buy a piece of software, I'm going to want it to work on either system,
and if only a Carbon version is offered, I can't do that.

-Thomas

Personal web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~thomasareed/
My shareware: http://home.earthlink.net/~thomasareed/shareware/
REALbasic page: http://home.earthlink.net/~thomasareed/realbasic/
Pixel Pen web pub. guide: http://home.earthlink.net/~thomasareed/pixelpen/

Why do they put Braille dots on the keypad of the drive-up ATM?

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Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 22:39 (Fri, 31 May 2002 17:39:12 -0400)
From: Kevin Ballard
On 5/31/02 4:48 PM, "Navdeep Bains" <<email address removed>> wrote:

>> They are working as properly as they can work. We can't "fix" them
>> because they're not broken; you could argue that ATSUI is, but as
>> noted above, the odds of that ever changing are pretty much nil.
>
> Why not detect that the app is running under OS 9, and switch to the old
> technology? Is that possible? I feel that this is a really important issue,
> and if there's any way to fix it, you should.

But that would unnecessarily balloon app sizes since all Carbon apps would
now need to include the old QuickDraw code, which 99.9% of them wouldn't
care about.

Re: Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 22:56 (Fri, 31 May 2002 14:56:53 -0700)
From: Navdeep Bains
Well, that's an easy one to answer. Make it an option when compiling:
"Include QuickDraw Editfields"

Are there any other drawbacks? Is it even possible?

Thanks,
Navdeep Bains

On Fri, 31 May 2002 17:39:12 -0400, Kevin Ballard <kevin@sb.org> wrote:

> From: Kevin Ballard <kevin@sb.org>
> To: REALbasic NUG <<email address removed>>
> Reply-To: "REALbasic Network Users Group" <<email address removed>>
> Subject: Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
> Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 17:39:12 -0400
> User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309
>
> On 5/31/02 4:48 PM, "Navdeep Bains" <<email address removed>> wrote:
>
>>> They are working as properly as they can work. We can't "fix" them
>>> because they're not broken; you could argue that ATSUI is, but as
>>> noted above, the odds of that ever changing are pretty much nil.
>>
>> Why not detect that the app is running under OS 9, and switch to the old
>> technology? Is that possible? I feel that this is a really important issue,
>> and if there's any way to fix it, you should.
>
> But that would unnecessarily balloon app sizes since all Carbon apps would
> now need to include the old QuickDraw code, which 99.9% of them wouldn't
> care about.
>
> --
> Kevin Ballard
> kevin@sb.org
> Email from Korea or China must go to <kevin.nb@sb.org>
> http://kevin.sb.org/
>
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Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 21:05 (Fri, 31 May 2002 13:05:31 -0700)
From: Will Leshner
My suggestion would be to try a bigger/different font. Personally, I
think both versions are hard to read.

On Friday, May 31, 2002, at 12:31 PM, Navdeep Bains wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm a longtime REALBasic developer who's switching to Carbon builds.
> I'm designing my new applications, and redesigning my old applications,
> so that the same build will run seamlessly in both OS 9 & OS X.
>
> After releasing Bad Cookie!(one of my apps), I decided to switch to
> REALBasic 4(which I had already paid for). RB 3.5.2 wasn't
> anti-aliasing text in single-line editfields under OS X, and that made
> the text difficult to read in Apple's suggested System 11. I released
> Bad Cookie! 1.1 after building it in RB 4.
>
> I launched the application under OS 9 a few days later, and was
> surprised to see all of my editfield text "squished together", and very
> difficult to read. This isn't that big of a deal in Bad Cookie!, since
> I only use 3 or 4 editfields, but it will have a significant effect in
> my other applications.
>
> For example, I was planning on releasing Cram Session, a flash
> card/quizzing app this Monday. Since the objective of the application
> is to help the user memorize information, hard to read text is a fatal
> blow to the application's usability. I also develop an email
> application, and the same is true there.
>
> I've uploaded a snapshot of Cram Session to demonstrate my point:
> http://www.bainsware.com/images/cramcompare.gif
>
> The one of the left is the Carbon build, and the Classic build is on
> the right.
>
> The only workaround I can see is to release both a OS 9 version and an
> OS X version. This is a hassle for both me and the user, and it
> shouldn't be necessary. I just downloaded REAL's latest Alpha, and was
> again surprised, this time because the issue has yet to be resolved!
>
> If something as rudimentary as editfields aren't working properly, stop
> and fix them before moving on! If this isn't resolved by 4.5 Final, I
> won't be purchasing the upgrade.
>
> Anyway, does anyone know of any workarounds? Is there a version of RB
> that anti-aliases editfield text under X, but still displays text
> correctly under 9? I only have 3.5.2, and 4+; perhaps there's a version
> in between?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Navdeep Bains
>
> Bains Software
> http://www.bainsware.com
> mailto:<email address removed>
> ---
> Subscribe to the digest:
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Re: REALBasic 4/4.5 Carbon Editfields
Date: 31.05.02 21:28 (Fri, 31 May 2002 15:28:52 -0500)
From: David Grogono
on 5/31/02 2:31 PM, Navdeep Bains at <email address removed> wrote:

> I launched the application under OS 9 a few days later, and was surprised to
> see all of my editfield text "squished together", and very difficult to read.

As Joe as already explained it may be best to do a PPC build. However this
squisiness varies greatly with the font and size that you choose. In 4.5
you can set the text to size-0 and font-SmallSystem. You may find this is
acceptable to you on both OS X and 9.

-David

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