Will REALbasic Ever allow ...? (Real Studio network user group Mailinglist archive)

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[OT] How to compile Carbon Shared Library w/ProjectBuilder?   -   Hadley, Joshua
  Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Cecil Taylor
   Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Tom McGrath
    Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Greg Ewing
     Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Cecil Taylor
    Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Joseph J. Strout
     Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Kevin Ballard
      Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Joseph J. Strout
    Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Thomas Reed
     Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Greg Ewing
   Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Geoff Perlman
    Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Cecil Taylor
     Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   William Mahaffey
      Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Will Leshner
       Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Tom McGrath
       Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   William Mahaffey
        Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Will Leshner
     Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Geoff Perlman
      Editing source code as outlines   -   Paul Howson
     Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Tony Spencer
    Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?   -   Thomas Reed

Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 01:06 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:06:49 -0800)
From: Cecil Taylor

When will the RB syntax discard the concept of the "line" and allow such
encoding such as:

if a = b or
c = d or
e = f then
...
end if

I would even accept ending each line with a "continuation" character.

CT

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 01:43 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:43:34 -0500)
From: Tom McGrath
Soft wrap is BAD when it comes to programming. I cannot stand most text
editors when I do my perl stuff because I can't easily tell when one
line ends and another begins. It's just frustrating. I am SOOOOOOOO
thankful that RB doesn't do this, or I wouldn't/couldn't use it.

Now, as with all Macintosh stuff, we should have the option, but who
would use it?

I think you'd get code that is a lot harder to follow. The automatic
indenting is great. When I distribute my PERL programs, I'm always
getting comments about "oh your code is so easy to follow" blah blah
blah. If you indent wrapping lines, then it becomes difficult to tell
the difference between one a set of code in a routine and the routine
definition.

I think your best bet is to get use to the "no text wrap" feature
because it keeps code MUCH cleaner.

[ although, really long lines of code cause great speed issues in
REALbasic ]

On Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 07:06 PM, Cecil Taylor wrote:

> When will the RB syntax discard the concept of the "line" and allow
> such encoding such as:
>
> if a = b or
> c = d or
> e = f then
> ...
> end if
>
> I would even accept ending each line with a "continuation" character.

- Tom McGrath
Head of the ZeeTox Project and lead programmer for The ZAZ
Contact me with iChat or AOL Instant Messenger: zazTekcor

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 02:00 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:00:05 +1300 (NZDT))
From: Greg Ewing
Tom McGrath <<email address removed>>:

> Soft wrap is BAD when it comes to programming.

What was being asked for wasn't soft wrapping, rather
the ability to manually insert (hard) line breaks.

The lack of this annoys me, too.

Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+
University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a |
Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. |
<email address removed> +--------------------------------------+

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 03:46 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:46:44 -0800)
From: Cecil Taylor

>
>> Soft wrap is BAD when it comes to programming.
>
> What was being asked for wasn't soft wrapping, rather
> the ability to manually insert (hard) line breaks.
>
> The lack of this annoys me, too.

Thanks for the clarification Greg.

CT

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 06:12 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:12:59 -0800)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 7:43 PM -0500 12/11/02, Tom McGrath wrote:

>I think your best bet is to get use to the "no text wrap" feature
>because it keeps code MUCH cleaner.

In general I agree, though some lines are just too long to be seen at
once. Such lines would benefit from wrapping if it were done
properly. For example, the way lines are wrapped in code listings in
RB Developer seems very readable to me.

>[ although, really long lines of code cause great speed issues in REALbasic ]

What?!?

Cheers,
- Joe

Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 06:44 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:44:27 -0500)
From: Kevin Ballard
It's been improved, but the longer the line of code is, the longer it
takes RB to redraw the editfield.

What's really annoying for me is typing off the edge, it scrolls really
slowly, and the characters are typed really slowly, so if I'm typing a
long line I generally get 10-20 characters ahead of what's being
displayed in the keyboard queue. It's anoying, but once I stop typing I
just wait 5 seconds and it's caught up.

On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 12:12 AM, Joseph J. Strout wrote:

> At 7:43 PM -0500 12/11/02, Tom McGrath wrote:
>
>> I think your best bet is to get use to the "no text wrap" feature
>> because it keeps code MUCH cleaner.
>
> In general I agree, though some lines are just too long to be seen at
> once. Such lines would benefit from wrapping if it were done
> properly. For example, the way lines are wrapped in code listings in
> RB Developer seems very readable to me.
>
>> [ although, really long lines of code cause great speed issues in
>> REALbasic ]
>
> What?!?

Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 07:02 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:02:48 -0800)
From: Joseph J. Strout
At 12:44 AM -0500 12/12/02, Kevin Ballard wrote:

>It's been improved, but the longer the line of code is, the longer
>it takes RB to redraw the editfield.

You mean the code editor? Ah. I thought you meant that it somehow
made the compiled code slower...

Cheers,
- Joe

P.S. It's not an EditField; if it were, it'd probably be quite a bit faster.

Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 16:32 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:32:23 -0600)
From: Thomas Reed
>Soft wrap is BAD when it comes to programming. [...]
>
>Now, as with all Macintosh stuff, we should have the option, but who
>would use it?

I would. Not often, but every now and then there's a line that's
just painful, and there's no elegant way to split it up.

>I think you'd get code that is a lot harder to follow.

In general, I agree with you. Code with excessive use of single
statements that cover multiple lines is nasty. But sometimes it's
useful.

Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 22:38 (Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:38:29 +1300 (NZDT))
From: Greg Ewing
Thomas Reed <<email address removed>>:

> Code with excessive use of single
> statements that cover multiple lines is nasty. But sometimes it's
> useful.

And sometimes long statements are unavoidable, as when you
have a method call with many parameters, and you want
what you're passing to each one to have a readable name.

But the single worst trouble spot of this kind in RB
has to be the method headers. Not only do you not get
any choice about how they're displayed, you can't even
edit them in the code window -- you have to use another
widget for this, with a very limited space for typing
in the parameter list.

It also doesn't help that you have to specify the
type of each parameter individually (unlike dim
statements where a series of variables with the same
type can share the same type specifier).

Maybe this is a conspiracy to discourage us from
giving our methods too many parameters? :-)

Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+
University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a |
Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. |
<email address removed> +--------------------------------------+

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 03:58 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:58:44 -0600)
From: Geoff Perlman
On 12/11/02 6:06 PM, "Cecil Taylor" <<email address removed>> wrote:

> When will the RB syntax discard the concept of the "line" and allow such
> encoding such as:
>
> if a = b or
> c = d or
> e = f then
> ...
> end if
>
> I would even accept ending each line with a "continuation" character.

A line continuation character is something we will eventually add to RB.

Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 04:24 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:24:47 -0800)
From: Cecil Taylor

On Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 06:58 PM, Geoff Perlman wrote:

> On 12/11/02 6:06 PM, "Cecil Taylor" <<email address removed>> wrote:
>
>> When will the RB syntax discard the concept of the "line" and allow
>> such
>> encoding such as:
>>
>> if a = b or
>> c = d or
>> e = f then
>> ...
>> end if
>>
>> I would even accept ending each line with a "continuation" character.
>
> A line continuation character is something we will eventually add to RB.

Thanks Geoff. I hope "eventually" means 5.0 :-)!!

CT

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 04:54 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:54:41 -0800)
From: William Mahaffey
I do most of my work on an ibook.
It seems one "and" statement is enough to require me to
remember what is off screen when reading a source line,
and often scrolling back and forth multiple times.

let's see now. Which way is more enjoyable?
Which is more effective and easy to use?
Which looks better?

I don't understand how one can prefer a single very long line.

But, hey,......

bill

On Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002, at 19:24 US/Pacific, Cecil Taylor wrote:

>
> On Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 06:58 PM, Geoff Perlman wrote:
>
>> On 12/11/02 6:06 PM, "Cecil Taylor" <<email address removed>> wrote:
>>
>>> When will the RB syntax discard the concept of the "line" and allow
>>> such
>>> encoding such as:
>>>
>>> if a = b or
>>> c = d or
>>> e = f then
>>> ...
>>> end if
>>>
>>> I would even accept ending each line with a "continuation" character.
>>
>> A line continuation character is something we will eventually add to
>> RB.
>
> Thanks Geoff. I hope "eventually" means 5.0 :-)!!
>
> CT
>
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-------------------------------------------------
Darn right I'm good in bed. I can sleep for days!

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 04:59 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:59:44 -0800)
From: Will Leshner
Perhaps you haven't stared at a bunch of badly formated C source. Of
course, thousands of #if's doesn't help matters :)

On Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 07:54 PM, William Mahaffey wrote:

> I don't understand how one can prefer a single very long line.


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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 05:05 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 23:05:54 -0500)
From: Tom McGrath
Yes, those of us who started with most any other language where we use
text files, the feature in question would actually make things more
difficult. Those who started on REALbasic would probably be longing for
this.

Here's a top until then - make your font smaller. I think 10pt Monaco
works very well.

On Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 10:59 PM, Will Leshner wrote:

> Perhaps you haven't stared at a bunch of badly formated C source.

Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 16:43 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:43:03 -0800)
From: William Mahaffey

On Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002, at 19:59 US/Pacific, Will Leshner wrote:

> Perhaps you haven't stared at a bunch of badly formated C source. Of
> course, thousands of #if's doesn't help matters :)
>

I have spent many years looking at C code..let's see...how old is
"C"?....
So long so that I have learned to actually prefer assembler.
(BAL was the first language I learned. Since forgotten(thankfully!)

Anyway, in many cases badly formatted is a matter of taste...too often
a matter of convenience.

I would prefer looking at the code formatted in the way I want it
to be, not as some "format police" dictate.

Certainly a "modern" IDE can be user friendly, can it not?

bill

-------------------------
UNIX should be used as an adjective.
-- AT&T

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 17:00 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:00:18 -0800)
From: Will Leshner
Yes. I agree with that. I just wish my co-workers did :)

On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 07:43 AM, William Mahaffey wrote:

> I would prefer looking at the code formatted in the way I want it
> to be


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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 18:30 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:30:59 -0600)
From: Geoff Perlman
On 12/11/02 9:24 PM, "Cecil Taylor" <<email address removed>> wrote:

> Thanks Geoff. I hope "eventually" means 5.0 :-)!!

Unfortunately, it doesn't.

Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 14.12.02 21:10 (Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:10:03 +0100)
From: Tony Spencer
He couldn't possibly comment on that... ;-)

On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 04:24 am, Cecil Taylor wrote:

>> A line continuation character is something we will eventually add to
>> RB.
>
> Thanks Geoff. I hope "eventually" means 5.0 :-)!!

Tony Spencer
St Etienne du Grès, (13) France
<email address removed>
http://homepage.mac.com/tonyspencer/

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Re: Will REALbasic Ever allow ...?
Date: 12.12.02 17:57 (Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:57:24 -0600)
From: Thomas Reed
>Soft wrap is BAD when it comes to programming. [...]
>
>Now, as with all Macintosh stuff, we should have the option, but who
>would use it?

I would. Not often, but every now and then there's a line that's
just painful, and there's no elegant way to split it up.

>I think you'd get code that is a lot harder to follow.

In general, I agree with you. Code with excessive use of single
statements that cover multiple lines is nasty. But sometimes it's
useful.

(Sorry if this is a repost, Earthlink was having e-mail trouble
earlier and I don't think these came through...)