Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS (MBS Xojo Plugin Mailinglist archive)

Back to the thread list
Previous thread: [MBS] [ANN] 9.5pr10
Next thread: [MBS] Re: Mbsplugins monkeybreadsoftware.info Digest, Vol 244, Issue 5


[MBS] Troubles with HASP plugin   -   Leszek Nie
  Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Garth Hjelte
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Arnaud Nicolet
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Garth Hjelte
     [MBS] MacCountryCode   -   Beatrix Willius
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Christian Schmitz
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Garth Hjelte
     [MBS] Going to Real World 2012?   -   Christian Schmitz
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Christian Schmitz
    [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Garth Hjelte
     [MBS] When would I use StringToStringOrderedMapMBS (for instance)   -   Jann Gobble
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Arnaud Nicolet
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Christian Schmitz
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Garth Hjelte
     [MBS] DecryptString/EncryptString   -   Jens Bonerz
    Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS   -   Christian Schmitz
   [MBS] Retina CustumNSViewMBS   -   Jaap Cammeraat

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 20:18 (Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:18:13 -0500)
From: Garth Hjelte
At 04:58 AM 8/6/2009, you wrote:

>I can say today: Once I'll move from 10.5 to 10.6 for my main Mac, I
>will drop 10.3.9 support with my plugins.

But why the "drop"? Why not build up instead of drop out? If a
feature needs 10.5, specify it but don't lock out functions that
could easily work in pre-Leopard OS's. Unless I don't understand you.

>On the business case I hear often that users buy most of their
>software within the first months after they bought their computer.
>So if you finish your software this autumn, Leopard will be 2 years
>old. Don't expect too much sales to older versions. How many users
>which did not spend money for an OS update do you expect to spend
>money for your application?

See my other post. I just regard older users with some importance,
enough to not shove them under the bus unless I'm really forced to.
Recently I rewrote an app that used to be OS9 capable. Obviously, all
of us had to kiss OS9 goodbye for good reasons. But to pre-empt
earlier OSX's - why? OSX is not changing form, it's just adding
features and streamlining what it already has. Why not keep
applications as compatible as possible, and if features need Leopard,
document it, but don't kill off older users.

My Windows apps STILL run in Windows 98. When I come across a API
that isn't supported in Win98, I simply #ifdef and use something
similar. In cases where XP does something Win98 can't, I just
document that and if a customer really wants the feature, they get
XP. But the app still runs and operates.

I know, I look at developer.apple.com, and all over the place I see
"deprecated in 10.5". Shame on Apple. Still.

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 11:10 (Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:10:35 +0200)
From: Arnaud Nicolet
Le 6 août 09 à 11:58, Christian Schmitz a écrit:

> Hi,
>
> I can say today: Once I'll move from 10.5 to 10.6 for my main Mac, I
> will drop 10.3.9 support with my plugins.
>
> On the business case I hear often that users buy most of their
> software within the first months after they bought their computer. So
> if you finish your software this autumn, Leopard will be 2 years old.
> Don't expect too much sales to older versions. How many users which
> did not spend money for an OS update do you expect to spend money for
> your application?

Well, there are applications that need a specific OS version (look at
my other post). But, indeed, it's usual to make a new version of an
application when a new OS comes.
_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 20:10 (Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:10:00 -0500)
From: Garth Hjelte
At 02:51 AM 8/6/2009, you wrote:

> > Is that 10.5 only though? It is, I checked. Would you recommend
> Kernel Queues for pre-10.5?
>
>I don't use Kernel Queues.

OK, well, shoot... see below.

>Well, you can find a lot of statistics about Mac OS X versions.
>For example this one:
>http://unity3d.com/webplayer/hwstats/pages/web-2009Q1-os.html

That's really good, thanks.

>Basicly if you develop an application you develop it for the current
>OS version. Maybe the last one, but as Snow Leopard is coming soon,
>there is no big need to support Tiger for new applications.

Well, I understand that position, but that always unnerved me
ethically. I have an app that has thousands of users. I offer updates
at no charge. All of a sudden I have an update, and someone how is
happy as a clam using Tiger can't run it.

Some say that "well, that's the cost of progress" but what if this
new version fixes bugs or improves some function so it's what it
should do in the first place? This philosophy that users pay for
newer versions of a piece of software unnerves me personally. To
think that I can put out a perfect version of what the person
purchased in the first version is a kind of arrogance.

I like making software, and people buy it for what they get AND what
it should be. Anything "out of focus" they should pay for, sure. But
most software improvements are within a softwares scope and my
thinking is that the user already paid for this, with their initial purchase.

What users gripe about - planned obsolesce - has it's roots in the
type of marketing that thinks that "progress is paid for beyond
initial purchase". I don't like it as a user and I don't like it as a
manufacturer.

Sure, Leopard seems to have a 71-23 edge, but I still think the 23%
is important. Perhaps they don't NEED Leopard. (I don't.) So why the
purchase of Leopard unnecessarily? If I can avoid forcing people to
upgrade another piece of software, I'll do it.

In this case, I'll implement it, but I won't make my software Leopard
only. I'll just cut out that feature if the user runs it on
pre-Leopard. I hope developers aren't lazy and just take the easy way.

Just my opinion.

> > Didn't notice this, thanks - but why not merge the two classes into
> > one new cross-platform class? This discrepancy happens several times
> > in your plugin. Merging these types of things would make the user
> > experience much easier.
>
>All those classes are not feature equal, so I can't mix them.

MIDI isn't feature equal? Functionally it's the same on Mac and
Windows. MIDI is MIDI. Yet you have two classes for it.

Just write more generic wrapper functions. Same with FolderChanged. I
know you program "close" to the original functions, but maybe you
should start interpreting more. SOMEONE has to write the wrapper
functions. Either the user will have to do it, or you will. If you
want sales, you do it.

I'm not suggesting deprecating the separated classes. I'm suggesting
making a new one that is cross platform, with at least a basic
implementation, and hide the specific-platform details within your
class. If the user wants the specific function of one of the
platforms that the other does not support, just have them use the
platform-specific version - or better yet, just have the function
return blank on the non-platform-intended one. There are few
functions like that, AFAICT, so why not?

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 08:51 (Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:51:45 +0200)
From: Christian Schmitz

Am 06.08.2009 um 07:44 schrieb Garth Hjelte:

> Is that 10.5 only though? It is, I checked. Would you recommend
> Kernel Queues for pre-10.5?

I don't use Kernel Queues.

> Side question: although Leopard seems to have gained position, it
> sure seems like there's a lot of Leopard-only stuff. A major app that
> I work with, the new beta for the next version is Leopard-only. But I
> like Tiger and I think lots of people "rested" on Tiger and aren't
> super-interested in upgrading. Would you think most people are on
> Leopard? Do you think it's offensive for Apple to yet again foster
> incompatibility on people? Or is it the apps fault, for taking
> advantage of the new functions and forgetting about the Tiger crowd?

Well, you can find a lot of statistics about Mac OS X versions.
For example this one:
http://unity3d.com/webplayer/hwstats/pages/web-2009Q1-os.html

Basicly if you develop an application you develop it for the current
OS version. Maybe the last one, but as Snow Leopard is coming soon,
there is no big need to support Tiger for new applications.

> Didn't notice this, thanks - but why not merge the two classes into
> one new cross-platform class? This discrepancy happens several times
> in your plugin. Merging these types of things would make the user
> experience much easier.

All those classes are not feature equal, so I can't mix them.

Greetings
Christian

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 06:44 (Thu, 06 Aug 2009 00:44:42 -0500)
From: Garth Hjelte
At 04:26 PM 8/5/2009, you wrote:

> > What I'd like to do is make a ServiceApp that constantly run, that
> > monitors drives and logs all shell/finder changes. Then when my app
> > runs it can update its data.
>
>Use FSEvents. That is the new technology Apple invented for running
>Time Machine backups. The good thing is that your app can basicly ask
>for changes made since the last time you checked. So your application
>does not need to run always. But of course it can run always.

Is that 10.5 only though? It is, I checked. Would you recommend
Kernel Queues for pre-10.5?

Side question: although Leopard seems to have gained position, it
sure seems like there's a lot of Leopard-only stuff. A major app that
I work with, the new beta for the next version is Leopard-only. But I
like Tiger and I think lots of people "rested" on Tiger and aren't
super-interested in upgrading. Would you think most people are on
Leopard? Do you think it's offensive for Apple to yet again foster
incompatibility on people? Or is it the apps fault, for taking
advantage of the new functions and forgetting about the Tiger crowd?

> > -Extending FolderChangedNotificationMBS so it's cross-platform? The
> > Windows side is relatively easy.
>
>You mean the WindowsFolderChangeMBS class?

Didn't notice this, thanks - but why not merge the two classes into
one new cross-platform class? This discrepancy happens several times
in your plugin. Merging these types of things would make the user
experience much easier.

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 05.08.09 22:26 (Wed, 5 Aug 2009 23:26:36 +0200)
From: Christian Schmitz

Am 05.08.2009 um 22:40 schrieb Garth Hjelte:

> What is the Message integer in
>
> FolderChangedNotificationMBS.DirectoryChanged(message as integer,
> flags as integer)?

Message is typical kFNDirectoryModifiedMessage = 1 as this is the only
value Apple defined.
And flags is normally 0.

Note that this is an old technology Apple invented with Mac OS X 10.0.
Applications have to send notifications about changes and others watch
for this changes.

> What I'd like to do is make a ServiceApp that constantly run, that
> monitors drives and logs all shell/finder changes. Then when my app
> runs it can update its data.

Use FSEvents. That is the new technology Apple invented for running
Time Machine backups. The good thing is that your app can basicly ask
for changes made since the last time you checked. So your application
does not need to run always. But of course it can run always.

> Also, a Subscribe() call only monitors one folder and not the folders
> within it; so essentially you have to make as many Notification class
> instances as the folders you want to monitor?

Yes.

> Also, Christian, you asked for plugin wishes, how about:
>
> -Monitoring files, not just folders

Too much stuff to monitor.
Try it yourself: Use a Spotlight search for files modified today and
keep your app busy with receiving updates.

> -Extending FolderChangedNotificationMBS so it's cross-platform? The
> Windows side is relatively easy.

You mean the WindowsFolderChangeMBS class?

Greetings
Christian

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

[MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 05.08.09 21:40 (Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:40:33 -0500)
From: Garth Hjelte
What is the Message integer in

FolderChangedNotificationMBS.DirectoryChanged(message as integer,
flags as integer)?

What I'd like to do is make a ServiceApp that constantly run, that
monitors drives and logs all shell/finder changes. Then when my app
runs it can update its data.

Also, a Subscribe() call only monitors one folder and not the folders
within it; so essentially you have to make as many Notification class
instances as the folders you want to monitor?

Also, Christian, you asked for plugin wishes, how about:

-Monitoring files, not just folders
-Extending FolderChangedNotificationMBS so it's cross-platform? The
Windows side is relatively easy.

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 10:50 (Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:50:37 +0200)
From: Arnaud Nicolet
Le 6 août 09 à 9:51, Christian Schmitz a écrit:

>> Side question: although Leopard seems to have gained position, it
>> sure seems like there's a lot of Leopard-only stuff. A major app that
>> I work with, the new beta for the next version is Leopard-only. But I
>> like Tiger and I think lots of people "rested" on Tiger and aren't
>> super-interested in upgrading. Would you think most people are on
>> Leopard? Do you think it's offensive for Apple to yet again foster
>> incompatibility on people? Or is it the apps fault, for taking
>> advantage of the new functions and forgetting about the Tiger crowd?
>
> Basicly if you develop an application you develop it for the current
> OS version. Maybe the last one, but as Snow Leopard is coming soon,
> there is no big need to support Tiger for new applications.

Well, Snow Leopard is a special case. It's supposed to be a "better
version of Leopard", with no new improvements. So, 10.6 is currently
equal as 10.5.8 (therefore, Tiger is the last OS to be really
different).

For example, I have a lot of things that do not work in Leopard (I
bought PathFinder, but I can't replace the real Finder dues to
digital signature; a peripheral I bought at Tiger's time isn't
running in Leopard; Shape Shifter and Mighty Mouse (and some others
from the same author) aren't supported either, while I bought them;
<some other reasons, certainly>). Then, with Snow Leopard being
"just" Leopard with bug fixes, I don't want to try it either! And,
even when Snow Leopard will be available, I'll not consider Tiger to
be the 3rd from the end, but the 2nd one.
_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 20:57 (Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:57:11 +0200)
From: Christian Schmitz

Am 06.08.2009 um 21:18 schrieb Garth Hjelte:

> But why the "drop"? Why not build up instead of drop out? If a
> feature needs 10.5, specify it but don't lock out functions that
> could easily work in pre-Leopard OS's. Unless I don't understand you.

As far as I see apple does not include the 10.3.9 SDK with Xcode. And
the old SDK does not work on the new Xcode.

So I have to raise to compile all plugins at least against the 10.4 SDK.
And I will stop checking for 10.3.9 compatibility.

But if you use a plugin from me which uses no new APIs, it will still
run on 10.3.9. It is unsupported.
If the plugin calls a function which requires 10.4 it will not check
whether it can call it and simply crash.

Greetings
Christian

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 20:22 (Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:22:25 -0500)
From: Garth Hjelte
At 05:10 AM 8/6/2009, you wrote:

>Well, there are applications that need a specific OS version (look
>at my other post). But, indeed, it's usual to make a new version of
>an application when a new OS comes.

See my other posts. I'm talking about unnecessarily dumping backwards
compatibility. AT the very least, I would ask a developer some
specific reasons WHY the program has to now be Leopard only.

In Christians case, I don't really have a problem with him dumping
Panther. Really, OSX wasn't mature until Tiger. Tiger is a usable OS
for ages. Panther isn't. Tiger SHOULDN'T go obsolete. Panther, maybe.

I recently had 3 customers of mine complain that my app did not start
in Panther. I'm checking that out. My market is musicians, and often
they get a computer and get it working and make music and they are
done. So they'll go a while without upgrading.

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info

Re: [MBS] FolderChangedNotificationMBS
Date: 06.08.09 10:58 (Thu, 6 Aug 2009 11:58:09 +0200)
From: Christian Schmitz
Hi,

I can say today: Once I'll move from 10.5 to 10.6 for my main Mac, I
will drop 10.3.9 support with my plugins.

On the business case I hear often that users buy most of their
software within the first months after they bought their computer. So
if you finish your software this autumn, Leopard will be 2 years old.
Don't expect too much sales to older versions. How many users which
did not spend money for an OS update do you expect to spend money for
your application?

Greetings
Christian

_______________________________________________
Mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info mailing list
<email address removed>
https://ml01.ispgateway.de/mailman/listinfo/mbsplugins_monkeybreadsoftware.info