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Fwd: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins? (MBS Xojo Plugin Mailinglist archive)

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Fwd: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   Jerry Fritschle
   Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   Aaron Andrew Hunt
   [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   Christian Schmitz
    Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   Garth Hjelte
    Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   Christian Schmitz
    Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   Garth Hjelte
    Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   James Sentman
    Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?   -   Kev

Fwd: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 02.01.16 19:03 (Sat, 02 Jan 2016 12:03:17 -0600)
From: Jerry Fritschle

>> On Dec 30, 2015, at 11:03 AM, James Sentman <<email address removed> <mailto:<email address removed>>> wrote:
>>
>> Closing off the support for that in the current version would be no problem for me as I would just save off the last build of the plugins that would work with those ancient versions of real basic that I still have installed on my machine here.
>
> For some clients I too copy my main project into 2011r3, tweak a few lines of code (all that absolutepath stuff, for instance) and build for UB.
>
> For a long time I just kept the then-current MBS plugins in there and was fine. However, just days ago I was very happy that I could put the .rbx version of 15.4 in there, and save considerable work. This was mostly because of the updates to libcurl since then.
>
> That is not something I will need in the long term. Like James I’m sure I can stand pat with the .rbx plugins I have (as, until now, I had been) whenever I fire up 2011r3. My point is that your question, combined with the coincidence of my recent needs, just prompts me to thank you for keeping PPC support for as long as you have :-)
>
> -----
> "Drama is life with the dull bits cut out."
> -Alfred Hitchcock
>
> Jerry Fritschle
> <email address removed> <mailto:<email address removed>>
>
>
>

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Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 03.01.16 22:43 (Sun, 3 Jan 2016 16:43:35 -0500)
From: Aaron Andrew Hunt
On 01/03/2016 6:07 AM, <email address removed> wrote:
> I don't see any reason why a company has to "last version for the OS/arch" like FOREVER no exceptions. Keeping a simple build system around is completely doable, even for a single-person op like yours.

Here's my single-person op perspective.

I felt terrible dropping support for Snow Leopard, because it's a far
superior OS to anything before it or anything that has come after it,
but for me it came down to 2 things:

1. can I use the same source code for current and "legacy" compiling?
2. how does maintaining a "legacy" version affect my own quality of life?

The answer to 2 is: it annoys me, and takes up my time. Usually the
answer to 1 is simply "no", because of changes to the tools between
versions, but sometimes it is "yes". I loved Real Studio and I really
hated the Xojo IDE in comparison, but I've gotten "used to it", and it's
all I use now.

I use 3 versions of Xojo:

(1) current version (Win 7+ and OS 10.7+) I use for all new projects,
and this is what I work on 99% of the time
(2) 2014r2.1 (last version to build Carbon applications) - I use this
only for projects that still don't run correctly in Cocoa
(3) 2013r3.3 (last version to support Snow Leopard) - I use this for
projects that fit the needs of (2) and work when compiled with this
tool, because - why not?

I'm not a Windows user myself, only use it when I have to. I don't see
any reason to support XP, since Microsoft dropped it, and Windows 7 is a
much better OS as far as I can tell. I have an old Dell laptop that
still runs XP and I haven't used it at all in the last 2 years. My
Toshiba running Win 7 gets used whenever I compile and release updates,
and I find that OS tolerable, bordering on pleasant sometimes :)

Happy New Year everybody.
Aaron
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[MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 29.12.15 09:46 (Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:46:08 +0100)
From: Christian Schmitz
Hello,

from blog:

For the new year, I thought about whether I could drop something for Real Studio.
The downloads for Real Studio are down to about 10% compared to Xojo plugin downloads.

The users with Real Studio version capable of building PPC apps may be down to less than 1%, so I wonder if I still should spend time building PPC and Universal libraries.

When PPC support is no longer needed, it may be worth to move the minimum target for OS X from 10.4 to 10.6. For 64-bit, we already use 10.7 as target and for Cocoa 10.5. Using 10.6 for all of those could simplify coding.

Finally if downloads for Real Studio go down further, the rbx plugin format is at question. I considered already to write a converter to convert Xojo plugins to rbx plugins, so users in need of those plugins could do conversion themselves. I would no longer need to upload those plugins.

What do you guys think about such changes?

PS: If you still use Real Studio, please use latest 15.4 plugins. They still work with REALbasic 2006r4 and newer!


Sincerely
Christian

Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 02.01.16 18:21 (Sat, 02 Jan 2016 11:21:46 -0600)
From: Garth Hjelte
At 03:04 PM 12/30/2015, you wrote:

>For now I switched off PPC and 10.5 for 16.0 version.
>But it's a switch I could turn on again. As long as the Setup with Xcode 3 still works.
>(which could fail with an OS upgrade or machine change)

Keep a external USB drive around with multiple OS's on it, and make sure one of them has the older XCode and the setup necessary. For the ages.

>>but a recent update broke it,

>[stamps.com app] you have no backup to go back one version?

The last version that has the printing thing intact doesn't have the GREAT bug fixes and features the later ones have.

This is the lament of the "no longer support older OS's" crowd. The last build that supports the older OS has certain problems and the company shuts the door FOREVER prematurely. As for the Stamps.com app, they SHOULD have known about that bug - I did report it and they had plenty of time to fix it. It's not a showstopper, but it's sure an inconvenience. If I have say 24 international packages to send out, I have to print 12 pages, then print the same pages again (with the last 12 package stickers) on the bottom. Not only is it inconvenient, it can be problematic with printers because often with used paper they misfeed - they you're really up a creek. What should have taken 20 seconds now takes 10 minutes.

I don't see any reason why a company has to "last version for the OS/arch" like FOREVER no exceptions. Keeping a simple build system around is completely doable, even for a single-person op like yours.

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

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Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 30.12.15 22:04 (Wed, 30 Dec 2015 22:04:37 +0100)
From: Christian Schmitz

> My only objection to this would be that if you added future features or bug-fixes - that I cared about - that WOULD work if you were compiling for 10.4/10.5/PPC, but it won't because you're not.

For now I switched off PPC and 10.5 for 16.0 version.
But it's a switch I could turn on again. As long as the Setup with Xcode 3 still works.
(which could fail with an OS upgrade or machine change)

> but a recent update broke it,

you have no backup to go back one version?

Sincerely
Christian

Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 30.12.15 21:40 (Wed, 30 Dec 2015 14:40:28 -0600)
From: Garth Hjelte
At 02:46 AM 12/29/2015, you wrote:

>For the new year, I thought about whether I could drop something for Real Studio.
>The downloads for Real Studio are down to about 10% compared to Xojo plugin downloads.
>The users with Real Studio version capable of building PPC apps may be down to less than 1%, so I wonder if I still should spend time building PPC and Universal libraries.

My only objection to this would be that if you added future features or bug-fixes - that I cared about - that WOULD work if you were compiling for 10.4/10.5/PPC, but it won't because you're not.

I just got bit by this concerning something unrelated but very similar. I use Stamps.com for postage, and I use a XP computer for industrial-non-pretty stuff. I print International postage on a sticker sheet with two stickers on it. The Stamps.com app USED TO print to both stickers, but a recent update broke it, where it only prints to one sticker. I called in the bug a year ago. I just found out that new versions of the app no longer support XP, so I checked the last XP version, and NO - the bug wasn't fixed. So for eternity (as long as I use the XP machine, which I'd like to forever - I mean, why not?), I have to print to one sticker, and then keep the pages and use the other side later on. It's not a show-stopper, but it is inconvenient. Thanks Stamps.com, for moving on without fixing all the bugs.

See, that's what I don't want to get myself into. I will use REAL2011r3 to compile PPC 10.4 apps as long as I can, with the last MBS version that will work with it. I will use the same code files with the latest Xojo and keep a common code base. I just want to be sure that when you move on and drop 10.4/5/PPC support, that last version doesn't have important bugs in it that should be fixed but never will, and that newer features are mostly dependant on things you are wrapping that depend on 107+ things anyway.

Why can't you keep a "last version" copy around, so if there's any decidedly important things that come up, you could spend some time fixing/or including it, and you'd update that as a branch? You wouldn't be maintaining it and it would only be for very legitimate things. Don't close the book forever - it doesn't have to be closed.

>When PPC support is no longer needed, it may be worth to move the minimum target for OS X from 10.4 to 10.6. For 64-bit, we already use 10.7 as target and for Cocoa 10.5. Using 10.6 for all of those could simplify coding.
>Finally if downloads for Real Studio go down further, the rbx plugin format is at question. I considered already to write a converter to convert Xojo plugins to rbx plugins, so users in need of those plugins could do conversion themselves. I would no longer need to upload those plugins.
>What do you guys think about such changes?
>PS: If you still use Real Studio, please use latest 15.4 plugins. They still work with REALbasic 2006r4 and newer!

Garth Hjelte
Sampler User

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Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 30.12.15 18:03 (Wed, 30 Dec 2015 12:03:14 -0500)
From: James Sentman
I still have several PPC/Intel 10.4-10.6 projects, but they aren’t the active development versions. I had to fork the code long ago to bring support for cocoa and 64 bit so I can’t compile my current code for PPC, but I do still do some rare bug fixes or minor additions for people still running those versions of the software. There are enough of them in our case that I do offer some support for it.

Closing off the support for that in the current version would be no problem for me as I would just save off the last build of the plugins that would work with those ancient versions of real basic that I still have installed on my machine here.

Since I’ll be staying up to date with Xojo for the foreseeable future, being able to load new versions of the old plugin format into an older version of RB is not really an issue.

> On Dec 29, 2015, at 3:46 AM, Christian Schmitz <<email address removed>> wrote:
>
> For the new year, I thought about whether I could drop something for Real Studio.
> The downloads for Real Studio are down to about 10% compared to Xojo plugin downloads.
>
> The users with Real Studio version capable of building PPC apps may be down to less than 1%, so I wonder if I still should spend time building PPC and Universal libraries.
>
> When PPC support is no longer needed, it may be worth to move the minimum target for OS X from 10.4 to 10.6. For 64-bit, we already use 10.7 as target and for Cocoa 10.5. Using 10.6 for all of those could simplify coding.

Thanks,
James

James Sentman http://www.PlanetaryGear.org http://MacHomeAutomation.com



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Re: [MBS] Dropping PPC, OS X 10.4 and/or rbx plugins?
Date: 29.12.15 12:02 (Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:02:24 +0000 (UTC))
From: Kev
Hi Christian.
Dropping PPC causes no problems for us.
Looking at the usage of our app for the past three months, Mac OS X 10.4 & Mac OS X 10.5 represents just under 1% so if you decide to drop support for those over the next few months I don't think it would cause us any real problems. If possible, I would like to keep Mac OS X 10.6 support for now as that is still used by over 7% of our end-users.
If your Xojo to rbx converter works reliably then I don't have a problem using that.

Regards,Kev.

On Tuesday, 29 December 2015, 8:46, Christian Schmitz <<email address removed>> wrote:

Hello,

from blog:

For the new year, I thought about whether I could drop something for Real Studio.
The downloads for Real Studio are down to about 10% compared to Xojo plugin downloads.

The users with Real Studio version capable of building PPC apps may be down to less than 1%, so I wonder if I still should spend time building PPC and Universal libraries.

When PPC support is no longer needed, it may be worth to move the minimum target for OS X from 10.4 to 10.6. For 64-bit, we already use 10.7 as target and for Cocoa 10.5. Using 10.6 for all of those could simplify coding.

Finally if downloads for Real Studio go down further, the rbx plugin format is at question. I considered already to write a converter to convert Xojo plugins to rbx plugins, so users in need of those plugins could do conversion themselves. I would no longer need to upload those plugins.

What do you guys think about such changes?

PS: If you still use Real Studio, please use latest 15.4 plugins. They still work with REALbasic 2006r4 and newer!


Sincerely
Christian